Lionair plane down in Bali.
The "solution" hardly merits time and comment. Any meaningful critique of such an idea would never be understood within the system that makes such a solution somehow sensible because such self-referential systems usually dismiss helpful and/or experienced input from the outside. The region's accident rate is no accident.
Some people just have to pee on the electric fence.
Some people just have to pee on the electric fence.
award from Boeing
looking to get him an award from Boeing.
- award for swimming skills?
- award for...?
actually, the crew just recycled 89 million dollars of aircraft into sauce pans, probably a % finders fee of the replacement price would be in order. That would be worth awarding.
Early days, but planes missing planet earth by a couple of hundred feet usually have fairly distinct causes, most not desirable to have on your resume. In defence of the crew, the company has a very large responsibility in any outcome that is related to the crew decisions due to the pervasive FTL breaches by the company and what appears to be commercial pressures that would require that sort of cultural norm/normalisation of deviation, to exist.
Finding out what happened is straight forward, the why bit is going to have the usual regional issues and potential for obfuscation.
On putting the bureaucrats into training planes, I think it is a great idea, gets rid of the bureaucratic overhead, recycles the destroyed planes thus invigorating the manufacturers, and stops the bureaucrats causing greater damage to the industry. I like it. The proverbial Win-Win, not quite a Prisoners Dilemma or a Nash equilibrium, but good all round. Perhaps treating the aircrew as professionals instead of livestock may suffice?
MGW...
Mesoscale gravity waves are relatively large scale phenomena, not on the scale of the microburst. Nice try.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC
award for swimming skills?
award for...?
actually, the crew just recycled 89 million dollars of aircraft into sauce pans, probably a % finders fee of the replacement price would be in order. That would be worth awarding.
award for swimming skills?
award for...?
actually, the crew just recycled 89 million dollars of aircraft into sauce pans, probably a % finders fee of the replacement price would be in order. That would be worth awarding.
The CVR/FDR read out will be interesting .
LOLOLOLOL at doing a cartwheel while crashing!
As if they intentionally thought of doing this.
I could be wrong and without any of us knowing exactly what occurred and why it did, it would be pure speculation on my part but I'll bet you cartwheeling the aircraft was certainly not one manoeuvre they thought of when they were about to hit the water presumably with little forward vis available to them if they indeed they were in a severe downpour.
As if they intentionally thought of doing this.
I could be wrong and without any of us knowing exactly what occurred and why it did, it would be pure speculation on my part but I'll bet you cartwheeling the aircraft was certainly not one manoeuvre they thought of when they were about to hit the water presumably with little forward vis available to them if they indeed they were in a severe downpour.
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 7th May 2013 at 11:19.
"Cartwheeling" is probably the wrong term - "Ground Loop" (or "Reef Loop" if you prefer) probably better fits what happened.
I have my doubts that it was an intentional manuever - but it did likely reduce the violence of the deceleration.
Wouldn't be the first pilot to get an award for "exceptional luck in the face of danger"....
I have my doubts that it was an intentional manuever - but it did likely reduce the violence of the deceleration.
Wouldn't be the first pilot to get an award for "exceptional luck in the face of danger"....
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why hasn't there been any word on whether the FDR and CVR have been successfully read?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting report about Lion Air pilots knowingly exceeding flight and duty time limitations.
The video contained a statement from the director of transportation/aviation. It smacked of shutting the stable door.............
Having been in many airlines in various States over many years i have found this attitude very common. The manuals submitted for approval have all the correct language, but the day to day reality is very different. I even had one Flt Ops manager say that if crews worked to rule, i.e. their contract, and if all XAA rules were observed to the letter the airline might as well close down. And that was in Europe. What chance the developing world? The pax had better watch out. They have more knowledge about their health & safety with what food they eat than how they trust their lives to third parties who try to defy gravity.
The video contained a statement from the director of transportation/aviation. It smacked of shutting the stable door.............
Having been in many airlines in various States over many years i have found this attitude very common. The manuals submitted for approval have all the correct language, but the day to day reality is very different. I even had one Flt Ops manager say that if crews worked to rule, i.e. their contract, and if all XAA rules were observed to the letter the airline might as well close down. And that was in Europe. What chance the developing world? The pax had better watch out. They have more knowledge about their health & safety with what food they eat than how they trust their lives to third parties who try to defy gravity.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "preliminary report by May 13th" was an NTSC response to an email that I sent to them asking when they would publish something. I sent a follow-up two days ago, but have not seen a reply yet.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The preliminary report is now posted here. It does not say why they crashed. The PF said he could not see the runway at 150 feet AGL, and the Captain took over. It appears that either the GA was initiated too late or not at all.
Last edited by repariit; 15th May 2013 at 02:58.
So, minimums call at 550'. Continued down without seeing the runway, 150' the Captain takes over as the FO says again he can't see the runway.
Aircraft gets down to 20' before the Captain calls Go Around.......hit the water 1 second later....
They flew a perfectly serviceable 738 into the water for no good reason......
The mind boggles........
Lucky they hit the water where they did, another 100' closer to the runway and they'd all be dead after impacting the sea wall.......
So I suppose you could say they were lucky!!
Aircraft gets down to 20' before the Captain calls Go Around.......hit the water 1 second later....
They flew a perfectly serviceable 738 into the water for no good reason......
The mind boggles........
Lucky they hit the water where they did, another 100' closer to the runway and they'd all be dead after impacting the sea wall.......
So I suppose you could say they were lucky!!
Last edited by nitpicker330; 15th May 2013 at 03:17.
Good Lord!!!
So at 900' the PF states that 'he can't see the runway' and they continue to minima which is fine. At minima the A/P and A/Thr disconnected and aircraft continues to descend (dodgy), then at 150' the PF once again states that he can't see the runway so the Captain takes over and continues descending to 20' where he realises that he maybe should go around........ UNBELIEVABLE
Seems all very casual, no mention of a visual call at minima, assumption would be that they weren't, they then pushed on regardless to a position in the water well short of the runway which they hit with ultimate precision.... IDIOTS
So at 900' the PF states that 'he can't see the runway' and they continue to minima which is fine. At minima the A/P and A/Thr disconnected and aircraft continues to descend (dodgy), then at 150' the PF once again states that he can't see the runway so the Captain takes over and continues descending to 20' where he realises that he maybe should go around........ UNBELIEVABLE
Seems all very casual, no mention of a visual call at minima, assumption would be that they weren't, they then pushed on regardless to a position in the water well short of the runway which they hit with ultimate precision.... IDIOTS
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 15th May 2013 at 03:49.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Queensland
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying experience
Total hours : 15,000 hours
Total on type : 7,000 hours
Last 90 days : 279 hours 8 minutes
Last 60 days : 20 hours 51 minutes
Last 24 hours : 5 hours 11 minutes
This flight : 1 hour 50 minutes
The captain flight time between day 90 and day 60 seems a touch on the high side and should have been a red flag for the preliminary accident report. Does the NTSC think that nobody is going to read the report? Or have I been wearing my old glasses when I read it?
Total hours : 15,000 hours
Total on type : 7,000 hours
Last 90 days : 279 hours 8 minutes
Last 60 days : 20 hours 51 minutes
Last 24 hours : 5 hours 11 minutes
This flight : 1 hour 50 minutes
The captain flight time between day 90 and day 60 seems a touch on the high side and should have been a red flag for the preliminary accident report. Does the NTSC think that nobody is going to read the report? Or have I been wearing my old glasses when I read it?
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Confirming many points heard in Bali, but leaving some other unanswered.
The airline (and Capt ) explanation that it was a micro-burst and that despite applying full power a/c continued to descend is seriously shaken by the CVR transcript.(as expected ) No Chances anymore for the Boeing award I would say.
Continuing descent below MDA without runway in sight on a non-precision APP seem to be the main cause.
The fact that the a/c was never aligned with the runway is confirmed , but not explained.
The airline (and Capt ) explanation that it was a micro-burst and that despite applying full power a/c continued to descend is seriously shaken by the CVR transcript.(as expected ) No Chances anymore for the Boeing award I would say.
Continuing descent below MDA without runway in sight on a non-precision APP seem to be the main cause.
The fact that the a/c was never aligned with the runway is confirmed , but not explained.
They never had the Runway visual and the LNAV was probably faithfully following the inbound VOR radial. The inbound course is 091 whilst the Runway is 087. It's not aligned.
Last edited by nitpicker330; 15th May 2013 at 06:42.
that despite applying full power a/c continued to descend is seriously shaken by the CVR transcript.
Where is it indicated in the flight data that "full power" was applied?
Until the recorder provides the data, such statements are only hearsay.
In my view, at this important juncture the report is an embarrassment to ICAO requirements and the accident investigation process.
PJ2
1/ this is a preliminary report
2/ what in the report is wrong?
They mention the Captain called Go Around 1 second before "landing" on the water whilst at 20' RA……. a bit late…..
Forget about full thrust, it never happened….
2/ what in the report is wrong?
They mention the Captain called Go Around 1 second before "landing" on the water whilst at 20' RA……. a bit late…..
Forget about full thrust, it never happened….