Helicopter Crash Central London
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Originally Posted by stuckgear
are you implying that Peter Barnes was at an airspeed 'too fast' for the conditions?
For mfaff - any speed from heli 'max' down to nil for a precautionary landing via hover taxi at around 5-10kts would be options for flight in visual contact with features.
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Thanks..
So is the PIC is relatively free. subject to 'fly neighbourly' considerations to chose his/ her own airspeed over London?
So is the PIC is relatively free. subject to 'fly neighbourly' considerations to chose his/ her own airspeed over London?
Last edited by stuckgear; 19th Jan 2013 at 11:57.
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Look, I appreciate that you really want to be right, but you're just dead.
[rhetorical question]
Last edited by stuckgear; 19th Jan 2013 at 12:00.
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Speed
Could he slow? Yes. 30 - 40 knots is possible but is it advisable and therefore what a pilot would chose to do if he thought at that time he had options?
Helicopter discs are less efficient in the hover as airflow moves from above the disk to below. With forward motion the airflow changes, entering the disc from in front and being deflected down / rearward. This increases disc efficiency and therefore we have the same lift at lower power setting, and we are safer.
Increasing speed also increases parasitic drag of the airframe, hence there is a trade-off leading to an optimal speed. This is usually between 60 to 80 knots but it is individual to particular helicopter design. However, 30 or 40 knots is definitely on the back side of the power curve.
Slowing below this optimal speed means increase power usage, flying the back-side of the curve. So personally I would not chose to slow down below that without very good cause.
We don't know what speed PB was flying but with half the height normally used then even 70 knots would look fast from the viewpoint of a member of the public. The AAIB report will have this data.
Could he slow? Yes. 30 - 40 knots is possible but is it advisable and therefore what a pilot would chose to do if he thought at that time he had options?
Helicopter discs are less efficient in the hover as airflow moves from above the disk to below. With forward motion the airflow changes, entering the disc from in front and being deflected down / rearward. This increases disc efficiency and therefore we have the same lift at lower power setting, and we are safer.
Increasing speed also increases parasitic drag of the airframe, hence there is a trade-off leading to an optimal speed. This is usually between 60 to 80 knots but it is individual to particular helicopter design. However, 30 or 40 knots is definitely on the back side of the power curve.
Slowing below this optimal speed means increase power usage, flying the back-side of the curve. So personally I would not chose to slow down below that without very good cause.
We don't know what speed PB was flying but with half the height normally used then even 70 knots would look fast from the viewpoint of a member of the public. The AAIB report will have this data.
Last edited by John R81; 19th Jan 2013 at 13:14. Reason: Spelling - iPads!
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I'm sure if there was a computer up there in Heaven, the pilot would be posting us a note to say he'd 
ed up. As there isn't, I thought I'd do it for him!
Everyone s up from time to time- I'm not casting aspersions here.
Why did I hit the crane? - because I didn't see it in time.
Why didn't I see it? The weather was crap!
Why was I pressing on VFR when it was clearly IFR conditions? There's no IFR letdown for where I was going.
Why was I there when the wx was so poor? Well, it seemed a good idea at the time! Not so much from up here though.
I know- we should wait for the AAIB report, but frankly, I wonder what they'll be able to add with no CVR or FDR.
VFR into IMC has killed more pilots and passengers than just about anything else. We've all done it when we shouldn't (Well, I have anyway).
Old pilots do it, bold pilots, good pilots, not so good pilots have all done it. Military, Civil, PPLs and even the best and most experienced have all had a dabble. Mostly, they get away with it. Chopper pilots are much more exposed to this sort of flying though than yer 100% IFR guys.
There but for the Grace of God go all of us.
ed up. As there isn't, I thought I'd do it for him!Everyone
s up from time to time- I'm not casting aspersions here.Why did I hit the crane? - because I didn't see it in time.
Why didn't I see it? The weather was crap!
Why was I pressing on VFR when it was clearly IFR conditions? There's no IFR letdown for where I was going.
Why was I there when the wx was so poor? Well, it seemed a good idea at the time! Not so much from up here though.
I know- we should wait for the AAIB report, but frankly, I wonder what they'll be able to add with no CVR or FDR.
VFR into IMC has killed more pilots and passengers than just about anything else. We've all done it when we shouldn't (Well, I have anyway).
Old pilots do it, bold pilots, good pilots, not so good pilots have all done it. Military, Civil, PPLs and even the best and most experienced have all had a dabble. Mostly, they get away with it. Chopper pilots are much more exposed to this sort of flying though than yer 100% IFR guys.
There but for the Grace of God go all of us.
Last edited by AtomKraft; 19th Jan 2013 at 14:01.
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you're not an ATPL/CPL holder are you ?
[rhetorical question]
[rhetorical question]
[rhetorical question]
Seriously, the only point under disagreement here seems to be that I think it's better to go up for a think than down for a look, and you disagree, which suggest that you think going down for a look is a good idea.
If that's because of the potential for airframe icing, it's a fair point under normal circumstances, but since this thread is about a helicopter that hit a structure for some reason, your point is more than a bit moot regardless of what your qualifications are or how big your heli-dick is.
Perhaps a little mutual decorum might be wise hereinafter? I'm game if you are.
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'Up for a think' is generally a good idea, but in this specific circumstance it wasn't.
Between restricted airspace and cloud (in below freezing conditions on an aircraft that really doesn't do well with ice), 'up for a think' simply wasn't much of an option.
If Pete had thought it was the best option available, he would have taken it. He didn't, and he was the one who had the experience and the judgement - and was in the position - to know.
Between restricted airspace and cloud (in below freezing conditions on an aircraft that really doesn't do well with ice), 'up for a think' simply wasn't much of an option.
If Pete had thought it was the best option available, he would have taken it. He didn't, and he was the one who had the experience and the judgement - and was in the position - to know.
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WELL SAID Atomcraft!
Those that do, run the risk of up.
Those that don't, quite frankly don't.
All companies expect their pilots to operate to the limit of the weather and the aircraft to provide a commercial operation. And that puts pilots in situation where they have to make judgement calls. This guy will have made thousands of such judgement calls in his career, but its normally the last one was your worst. Look at the Moscow crash, I bet they wish they could have froze the sim and hard another go!
It is human nature to make mistakes, but the really important thing is how we as pilots and your company/training dept implement the best strategies to protect you and provide a robust and defensive flying mentality during training.
I have done single pilot ops in piston twins and wouldn't again given the choice.
I'd miss someone looking over my shoulder when the weather starts to deteriorate, fuel quantities looking worse and passengers barking about not landing where their cars are!
Mistakes? Yep, been there, got the Tee shirt and planning not to revisit the experience.
Those that do, run the risk of
up.Those that don't, quite frankly don't.
All companies expect their pilots to operate to the limit of the weather and the aircraft to provide a commercial operation. And that puts pilots in situation where they have to make judgement calls. This guy will have made thousands of such judgement calls in his career, but its normally the last one was your worst. Look at the Moscow crash, I bet they wish they could have froze the sim and hard another go!
It is human nature to make mistakes, but the really important thing is how we as pilots and your company/training dept implement the best strategies to protect you and provide a robust and defensive flying mentality during training.
I have done single pilot ops in piston twins and wouldn't again given the choice.
I'd miss someone looking over my shoulder when the weather starts to deteriorate, fuel quantities looking worse and passengers barking about not landing where their cars are!
Mistakes? Yep, been there, got the Tee shirt and planning not to revisit the experience.
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Most experienced pilots will have had near misses involving poor visibility and solid objects and got lucky. Hopefully most will have learned from the experience.
It's possible that the final outcome of this investigation will involve distraction / loss of spatial awareness. It occurred to me as well that the pilot in this case may have been misled by certain visual cues.
Most of us ( me anyway) would expect a construction crane to have a vertical support and a horizontal gib just above the building under construction. This one appears to have had a gib which extended upwards at an angle. The pilot may have seen the bulk of the building and the vertical support and assumed it safe to fly above them, not seeing the gib in the poor visibility. It probably wouldn't matter if the gib was lit as it wouldn't be seen in the cloud anyway. He probably thought that he was safe as he could still see the ground albeit from the cloud base.
I remember an experience from years ago flying along the Tyne. As a crew we were quite alarmed to see a large wire suspended on two quite large towers ahead of us directly on our flight path (in good visibility). This is with at least two of us checking the map! Human nature will get you every time. A single pilot in poor conditions, probably under a bit of pressure is in bad shape in these circumstances.
Very sad.
It's possible that the final outcome of this investigation will involve distraction / loss of spatial awareness. It occurred to me as well that the pilot in this case may have been misled by certain visual cues.
Most of us ( me anyway) would expect a construction crane to have a vertical support and a horizontal gib just above the building under construction. This one appears to have had a gib which extended upwards at an angle. The pilot may have seen the bulk of the building and the vertical support and assumed it safe to fly above them, not seeing the gib in the poor visibility. It probably wouldn't matter if the gib was lit as it wouldn't be seen in the cloud anyway. He probably thought that he was safe as he could still see the ground albeit from the cloud base.
I remember an experience from years ago flying along the Tyne. As a crew we were quite alarmed to see a large wire suspended on two quite large towers ahead of us directly on our flight path (in good visibility). This is with at least two of us checking the map! Human nature will get you every time. A single pilot in poor conditions, probably under a bit of pressure is in bad shape in these circumstances.
Very sad.
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My first post on the subject and yes I have read through the most recent pages. The issue of a climb seems to be contentious but without any detailed info as to the practicalities of such a maneuver.
I've used this from the CAA as part basis for the following.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/EIS%2006.pdf
If I may, here are some statements -
I've tried to play the bat straight with no aspersions cast towards posters and invite constructive criticism to further our debate.
I've used this from the CAA as part basis for the following.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/EIS%2006.pdf
If I may, here are some statements -
I've tried to play the bat straight with no aspersions cast towards posters and invite constructive criticism to further our debate.
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Most of us ( me anyway) would expect a construction crane to have a vertical support and a horizontal gib just above the building under construction. This one appears to have had a gib which extended upwards at an angle. The pilot may have seen the bulk of the building and the vertical support and assumed it safe to fly above them, not seeing the gib in the poor visibility. It probably wouldn't matter if the gib was lit as it wouldn't be seen in the cloud anyway. He probably thought that he was safe as he could still see the ground albeit from the cloud base.
Which ideally would have been the height of the jib raised to its maximum vertical position
Last edited by 757hopeful; 19th Jan 2013 at 15:55.
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Eltonioni
Going up is an option and one if I have taken in piston twins in situations where I was unhappy!
The problem here is I do not think he had got to a stage of being unhappy!
Sadly I drove past the building today! It is tall and very close to the river! I can well see how he got where he did! It is also very close to Battersea.
Looking at the building and situation I am even more convinced that serious lighting needs to be attached to that structure it's an accident waiting to happen with its proximity to busy helipad.
I felt really sorry for the pilot as I do not reckon the poor guy made much of a mistake.
The authorities maybe yes as that building should not be so minimally protected!
But going back to your point ! I do not believe he felt anything was wrong and probably had the shock of his life seeing the building as he flew out of mist.
He probably had fractions to pull away and didn't see the Crane arm!
So I doubt he was ever in a position to contemplate climbing as in his situation nothing was wrong. That building is wrong though.
Would lighting have saved him? Maybe in my opinion but we will never know.
I too do not expect much from the AAIB report as we did not get anything conclusive from the Citation Biggin Crash! Recommendations?? The CAA have already stated that they are looking at the lighting.
Going up is an option and one if I have taken in piston twins in situations where I was unhappy!
The problem here is I do not think he had got to a stage of being unhappy!
Sadly I drove past the building today! It is tall and very close to the river! I can well see how he got where he did! It is also very close to Battersea.
Looking at the building and situation I am even more convinced that serious lighting needs to be attached to that structure it's an accident waiting to happen with its proximity to busy helipad.
I felt really sorry for the pilot as I do not reckon the poor guy made much of a mistake.
The authorities maybe yes as that building should not be so minimally protected!
But going back to your point ! I do not believe he felt anything was wrong and probably had the shock of his life seeing the building as he flew out of mist.
He probably had fractions to pull away and didn't see the Crane arm!
So I doubt he was ever in a position to contemplate climbing as in his situation nothing was wrong. That building is wrong though.
Would lighting have saved him? Maybe in my opinion but we will never know.
I too do not expect much from the AAIB report as we did not get anything conclusive from the Citation Biggin Crash! Recommendations?? The CAA have already stated that they are looking at the lighting.
Last edited by Pace; 19th Jan 2013 at 16:46.
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It seems to me that the guy was caught out with the weather
Elected to try Battersea in conditions that were not suitable for VFR flying
it wasnt a safe option at that time of the day in those conditions
Doing a mix of VFR/IFR in this case was very stupid and caused the death of 2 people, one innocent pedestrian who had a very unfortunate end
The lighting of the crane wont be a factor as in daytime these red lights in mist are not effective, maybe powerful white strobes better
Lets keep the skies above London safe no cowboy activity
Elected to try Battersea in conditions that were not suitable for VFR flying
it wasnt a safe option at that time of the day in those conditions
Doing a mix of VFR/IFR in this case was very stupid and caused the death of 2 people, one innocent pedestrian who had a very unfortunate end
The lighting of the crane wont be a factor as in daytime these red lights in mist are not effective, maybe powerful white strobes better
Lets keep the skies above London safe no cowboy activity
This pilot was highly respected and in no way could he be classified as a Cowboy! I agree with Red Lights being insufficient in the day but high intensity are a must on this particular building being so close to aircraft routes into a busy Heliport.
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A couple of times I have asked the open question to the Rotor Head fraternity about the Agustas capability in icing conditions.....would anyone care to tell me what their opinions are?
An earlier comment was about chain of events and choices/decisions.
Fly to Elstree,weather deteriorates, divert back to base, weather deteriorates, divert enroute to Battersea.
Plenty to cope with and if you throw in icing which is an issue I suspect, a few folks have suggested going up, but NO, there is cloud above and its conducive to icing....
If conditions deteriorate to preclude useful SVFR, my gut feelings would be resort to CRM, not try and solve just on my own....who can you use? Heathrow Approach for sure. A Pan call to them would allow if necessary a diversion to them (yes I know it would cost money and loads of hassle, even a few go-arounds for the big boys) , but far better than struggling into Battersea with VERY marginal conditions. Any port in a storm !!
Hindsight perhaps, but I wonder if single crew helicopter pilots , are perhaps more inclined to solve problems on their own without wanting to resort to outside help when in a sticky situation?
An earlier comment was about chain of events and choices/decisions.
Fly to Elstree,weather deteriorates, divert back to base, weather deteriorates, divert enroute to Battersea.
Plenty to cope with and if you throw in icing which is an issue I suspect, a few folks have suggested going up, but NO, there is cloud above and its conducive to icing....
If conditions deteriorate to preclude useful SVFR, my gut feelings would be resort to CRM, not try and solve just on my own....who can you use? Heathrow Approach for sure. A Pan call to them would allow if necessary a diversion to them (yes I know it would cost money and loads of hassle, even a few go-arounds for the big boys) , but far better than struggling into Battersea with VERY marginal conditions. Any port in a storm !!
Hindsight perhaps, but I wonder if single crew helicopter pilots , are perhaps more inclined to solve problems on their own without wanting to resort to outside help when in a sticky situation?
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Bcal
I think it depends on the environment you are used to operating in! I did a lot of Twin Fixed wing flying where you were often operating OCAS and into small out of the way places in Scotland, Northern and Southern Ireland.
So you tend to be more "On the Hoof" and creative than when as now my flying is CAS operations in private jets.
I do miss the piston twins and that sort of OCAS flying which was a mix of IFR IMC as well as VMC flying and quite a kick from the challenge of it.
I am not a Helicopter pilot but imagine that they even more so are used to flying in minimal VMC conditions.
As such there must be a reluctance to declare a problem, climb, drag all the charts and plates out and change to IFR especially in Helicopters.
On top of that you have a customer waiting at one airfield while you land at another with the extra delay that an IFR approach demands ???
I think it depends on the environment you are used to operating in! I did a lot of Twin Fixed wing flying where you were often operating OCAS and into small out of the way places in Scotland, Northern and Southern Ireland.
So you tend to be more "On the Hoof" and creative than when as now my flying is CAS operations in private jets.
I do miss the piston twins and that sort of OCAS flying which was a mix of IFR IMC as well as VMC flying and quite a kick from the challenge of it.
I am not a Helicopter pilot but imagine that they even more so are used to flying in minimal VMC conditions.
As such there must be a reluctance to declare a problem, climb, drag all the charts and plates out and change to IFR especially in Helicopters.
On top of that you have a customer waiting at one airfield while you land at another with the extra delay that an IFR approach demands ???
Last edited by Pace; 19th Jan 2013 at 17:36.
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Helicopters do not do well in icing conditions unless they have rotor blade heating. Ice accretion on rotor blades is damaging to lift in much smaller quantities than ice on a fixed wing.
Therefore helicopter pilots try very hard not take machines into actual, known or forcast icing conditions unless they have anti-ice systems.
I am not aware that the A109 has an option for anti-ice, this is normally seen on larger machines such as the A139. You could search through the Agusta Westland webste to check, if you are keen.
Therefore helicopter pilots try very hard not take machines into actual, known or forcast icing conditions unless they have anti-ice systems.
I am not aware that the A109 has an option for anti-ice, this is normally seen on larger machines such as the A139. You could search through the Agusta Westland webste to check, if you are keen.
Last edited by John R81; 19th Jan 2013 at 18:14.