Helicopter Crash Central London
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Pace, there's not a hairs breadth between us and I do understand the pressure to work, even if from afar with only the benefit of an IMC ticket.
I can't speak for you on the outcome, but for me I'm expecting that this will turn out to be one of those tragic "**** happens" accidents. The issue that got me was discussion that building lighting might somehow stop this happening, when the truth is much more complicated, and far more to do with human factors than buildings.
By all means, leave lights on permanently, bright flashy ones if the CAA deems it necessary, but for whatever series of reasons, beginning with the decision to fly, the pilot shouldn't have been where he was, and no amount of lighting a temporary crane attached to a permanent building will change that, or most likely, the outcome.
We'll see, but it's classic Swiss cheese so far.
I can't speak for you on the outcome, but for me I'm expecting that this will turn out to be one of those tragic "**** happens" accidents. The issue that got me was discussion that building lighting might somehow stop this happening, when the truth is much more complicated, and far more to do with human factors than buildings.
By all means, leave lights on permanently, bright flashy ones if the CAA deems it necessary, but for whatever series of reasons, beginning with the decision to fly, the pilot shouldn't have been where he was, and no amount of lighting a temporary crane attached to a permanent building will change that, or most likely, the outcome.
We'll see, but it's classic Swiss cheese so far.
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p.s. my instrument instructor once said something to me while I was struggling with an NDB hold in especially crappy weather. It's stuck with me ever since:
"it's better to go up for a think than down for a look.
"it's better to go up for a think than down for a look.
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The issue that got me was discussion that building lighting might somehow stop this happening
to not apportion *blame*
and;
to state any specific action would have prevented the accident.
i have been clear that i have not stated that the lack of lighting caused the accident or that lighting would have prevented the accident but that it provides an additional level of safety at low cost and the aviation authrorities the world over recognise that lighting of obstructions of hazards to flight provides this.
Last edited by stuckgear; 19th Jan 2013 at 09:57.
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Ironically enough, I am from Manchester, but on wednesday when this happened I was about 4 miles away and heading towards the city of london shortly afterwards.
RIP to the pilot and the person passing by whom also lost his life. With constricting buildings, low visibility in fog and air traffic restrictions to deal with, I would hazard a geuss that it would put any chopper pilot under much pressure.
I know my following journey which started at 8:50 am to travel 4 miles
into the centre of london in the car took me nearly 2 hours, with the average walking speed being around 3-4 miles an hour it probably would have been quicker for me to walk.
RIP to the pilot and the person passing by whom also lost his life. With constricting buildings, low visibility in fog and air traffic restrictions to deal with, I would hazard a geuss that it would put any chopper pilot under much pressure.
I know my following journey which started at 8:50 am to travel 4 miles
into the centre of london in the car took me nearly 2 hours, with the average walking speed being around 3-4 miles an hour it probably would have been quicker for me to walk.
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The obstruction lighting is a pretty standard product...and CAA validated.
To deviate from it is a real challenge.
There is no de-ice function and it may/ may not be helpful.. these lamps do generate heat which is normally considered sufficient, UK climate only...
Just to be clear.. The obstruction light was on the end of the jib, whose max possible height was NOTAM'd. So if the jib was unlit (obstruction light failure) this was a hole in the cheese which aligned with another one.. pilot placing aircraft at height below NOTAM'd height at that location...
Normal crane operation recommend jib raised to max heights (min reach) for overnight conditions to reduce the moment arm associated with weather vaning.
So if we assume that the job was lit according to the regulations then those may or may not be deemed sufficient.
Shy/ Stuck one quick question re flight over London... would a pilot deem it prudent to reduce airspeed as WX deteriorates.. on is in a helo after all and airspeeds of 30/40 knots are possible as opposed to say a 100kts AS.. From my infrequent flights down H4 to Battersea as a pax I know airspeeds are kept 'reasonable' (in a Jetbox) to expedite arrival time, these however were in clear weather predominantly rather than marginal...
To deviate from it is a real challenge.
There is no de-ice function and it may/ may not be helpful.. these lamps do generate heat which is normally considered sufficient, UK climate only...
Just to be clear.. The obstruction light was on the end of the jib, whose max possible height was NOTAM'd. So if the jib was unlit (obstruction light failure) this was a hole in the cheese which aligned with another one.. pilot placing aircraft at height below NOTAM'd height at that location...
Normal crane operation recommend jib raised to max heights (min reach) for overnight conditions to reduce the moment arm associated with weather vaning.
So if we assume that the job was lit according to the regulations then those may or may not be deemed sufficient.
Shy/ Stuck one quick question re flight over London... would a pilot deem it prudent to reduce airspeed as WX deteriorates.. on is in a helo after all and airspeeds of 30/40 knots are possible as opposed to say a 100kts AS.. From my infrequent flights down H4 to Battersea as a pax I know airspeeds are kept 'reasonable' (in a Jetbox) to expedite arrival time, these however were in clear weather predominantly rather than marginal...
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Originally Posted by eltonioni
We'll see, but it's classic Swiss cheese so far.
Originally Posted by Pace
..... the first thing he knew was a very big bang...
But you can't blame people for spectulating over an accident like this - a helicopter about 2mts wide plus the disc hitting a crane jib about 1.2mts wide - in all that air! However, in many tragedies the collision seems to be brought about by an almost unavoidable train of events - a few microseconds in this one would have made all safe.
As for better lighting - I worked on the Canary Wharf Tower from its bed plates to lifting on the pyramidion - I've also seen it's strobes - ( yes, plural as there is one on each corner about half way up aswell as the one on the top ) from an R22 at Elstree Aerodrome even in daylight but not from underneath it at street level in fog on foot.
I can't remember a single installation of aviation lamps that could be turned off by simple switching - they were all hard wired permanently on. Further to that I think that this one in question has two systems - one solar powered on all the time.
The luffing boom of this crane was over 100ft long and was hit about half way along when parked at 85 degrees or so - given that the only time that this kind of crane lowers the boom further than 45 is in it's fitting stage - no position would have avoided this accident - it was caused by BOTH machines not one or more of one than the other.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by eltonioni
"it's better to go up for a think than down for a look.
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Why's that?
if along the bottom of a cloud base, going up into the cloud is going to do what exactly ?
if there's airspace above busting an airspace restriction is going to cause all kinds of problems.. not really the best situation with a high workload.
or are you suggesting that climb through it and pop out on top . sure, that's going to welcomed by many. not.
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Shy/ Stuck one quick question re flight over London... would a pilot deem it prudent to reduce airspeed as WX deteriorates.. on is in a helo after all and airspeeds of 30/40 knots are possible as opposed to say a 100kts AS.. From my infrequent flights down H4 to Battersea as a pax I know airspeeds are kept 'reasonable' (in a Jetbox) to expedite arrival time, these however were in clear weather predominantly rather than marginal...
what airspeed was he progressing at ? what were the condtions he was experiencing at the time ? what would you feel was an appropriate speed less than the craft was progressing at and in relation to the actual condition he was expereincing [airspeed] -10, -15, -20, -25?
Last edited by stuckgear; 19th Jan 2013 at 11:20.
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You'll have to do better than that. 
BOAC,
and add an unspecified icing restriction on the 109 with 'icing conditions' 'up'
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tough. take it up with NATS.
Or you could to take it up with St Peter if opening your gob and asking for help is too scary.
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It seems to me that the guy was caught out with the weather
Elected to try Battersea in conditions that were not suitable for VFR flying
it wasnt a safe option at that time of the day in those conditions
Doing a mix of VFR/IFR in this case was very stupid and caused the death of 2 people, one innocent pedestrian who had a very unfortunate end
The lighting of the crane wont be a factor as in daytime these red lights in mist are not effective, maybe powerful white strobes better
Lets keep the skies above London safe no cowboy activity
Elected to try Battersea in conditions that were not suitable for VFR flying
it wasnt a safe option at that time of the day in those conditions
Doing a mix of VFR/IFR in this case was very stupid and caused the death of 2 people, one innocent pedestrian who had a very unfortunate end
The lighting of the crane wont be a factor as in daytime these red lights in mist are not effective, maybe powerful white strobes better
Lets keep the skies above London safe no cowboy activity
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The controller would be a better bet to begin with. Something like: "Hello, I've got problems, yea, call it a pan if it helps, request climb... blah"
so.. you would say that while in sight of the surface and on approach into a waether diversion alternate, it would be prefereable to climb into cloud, loose sight of the surface and visual reference into strictly controlled, high density airspace.. to do what exactly.. hang around for a few days till the weatehr clears ?
Or you could to take it up with St Peter
if opening your gob and asking for help is too scary.
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It seems to me that the guy was caught out with the weather
Elected to try Battersea in conditions that were not suitable for VFR flying
it wasnt a safe option at that time of the day in those conditions
Doing a mix of VFR/IFR in this case was very stupid and caused the death of 2 people, one innocent pedestrian who had a very unfortunate end
The lighting of the crane wont be a factor as in daytime these red lights in mist are not effective, maybe powerful white strobes better
Lets keep the skies above London safe no cowboy activity
Elected to try Battersea in conditions that were not suitable for VFR flying
it wasnt a safe option at that time of the day in those conditions
Doing a mix of VFR/IFR in this case was very stupid and caused the death of 2 people, one innocent pedestrian who had a very unfortunate end
The lighting of the crane wont be a factor as in daytime these red lights in mist are not effective, maybe powerful white strobes better
Lets keep the skies above London safe no cowboy activity
Last edited by stuckgear; 19th Jan 2013 at 11:33.
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Not at all..
I have no idea what his speed might have been..
Asking if reducing one's airspeed is something a helo pilot may consider in such conditions.
I have no idea what his speed might have been..
Asking if reducing one's airspeed is something a helo pilot may consider in such conditions.