naming and shaming - cui bono?
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Of course there are. Once having completed whatever initial treatment regimen is prescribed, these "alcoholics" are referred to as "recovering alcoholics". The same applies to drug addicts too. Some of those suffering from other psychological "abnormalities" are still eligible to fill safety sensitive positions as well. And not just in flying either. I'd go so far as to say that every major career field is probably represented.
Flying airlines is particularly dangerous to alcoholics:
Long periods of boredom
Periods of high stress
Missed, delayed or snack meals
Overnights alone without spouse or partner
Sufficient money to spend
An unusually (compared with other occupations) high proportion of young-ish, fit-ish, attractive-ish people who are all away from home and glad of company...where does one meet...over a meal or a drink.
The acronym HALT is used in some treatment programmes to remind alcoholics of the danger times --
Hungry
Angry
Lonely
Tired
These should all be avoided as far as possible as they are triggers to have a drink.
The best thing an alcoholic pilot can do is find a non-flying role where the hours are regular, meals are regular and they can go home safely to their partner every evening. The best thing an airline can do for an alcoholic pilot is find them an appropriate ground job.
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Lemain...The best thing an alcoholic pilot can do is find a non-flying role where the hours are regular, meals are regular and they can go home safely to their partner every evening. The best thing an airline can do for an alcoholic pilot is find them an appropriate ground job.
Last edited by Desert185; 6th Jan 2013 at 08:54.
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prevention better than cure...for airline drivers here in the tropics the national regulator's mandate; 100% BAT for every crew on every flight before one can even look at the ships papers. Failing/refusing the breath analyser (only a zero readout is pass) anchors the protagonist with imm effect. For a first time offence its a three month hiatus, docking of pay, and the regulator being informed.
In case of repeat, kiss ur license goodbye!
The BAT procedure pretty crisp and fool proof with no avenues to bypass!
been quite effective imho.
In case of repeat, kiss ur license goodbye!
The BAT procedure pretty crisp and fool proof with no avenues to bypass!
been quite effective imho.
The best thing an airline can do for an alcoholic pilot is find them an appropriate ground job.
In my opinion it all comes down to how the terminology is used and in what context.
As for this latest accused pilot, I think it would be more appropriate if this stuff was handled with more discretion at least until such time as they are convicted of a criminal offense. It just seems more civilized.
westhawk
100% BAT for every crew on every flight
We just keep moving closer and closer to those dystopian sci-fi novels I grew up with.
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westhawk -- totally agree, most people are not alcoholics, they just did something stupid. Mind you, drinking and flying/driving/surgery/heavy machinery/industrial plant is so obviously a 'no' and so dumb that you ask whether they are smart enough to be doing such a responsible job. Still, a career and job breaker for one mistake is probably too harsh? A long ban is stupid - all it does is to make their skills rusty.
Other than ground jobs, there are opportunities for simulator training and airborne flying instructor (daytime, regular hours) both of which should be fine for a abstinent so-called 'recovering alcoholic'. They need regular hours and meals, few stress triggers; not all 'hairy' events cause 'stress' indeed most 'stress' results from things you can't control and that drag on. Reduce temptation, so meals out and bars especially when alone or with boozy company letting their hair down is a bad idea. Plenty of good quality regular sleep is also good. In essence, that means a 9 to 5 kind of job, not an operational airline pilot whose life is exactly the opposite.
100% BAC testing of all flight crew makes a lot of sense. Takes all the guesswork out and home testers are very reliable and cheap so there's no reason why anyone would present with positive BAC. If they slip-up after a late drinks gathering, they can phone-in sick. Good for pilots, public and airlines.
Other than ground jobs, there are opportunities for simulator training and airborne flying instructor (daytime, regular hours) both of which should be fine for a abstinent so-called 'recovering alcoholic'. They need regular hours and meals, few stress triggers; not all 'hairy' events cause 'stress' indeed most 'stress' results from things you can't control and that drag on. Reduce temptation, so meals out and bars especially when alone or with boozy company letting their hair down is a bad idea. Plenty of good quality regular sleep is also good. In essence, that means a 9 to 5 kind of job, not an operational airline pilot whose life is exactly the opposite.
100% BAC testing of all flight crew makes a lot of sense. Takes all the guesswork out and home testers are very reliable and cheap so there's no reason why anyone would present with positive BAC. If they slip-up after a late drinks gathering, they can phone-in sick. Good for pilots, public and airlines.
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google "Lyle Prouse". Or read this post:
http://www.pprune.org/3028059-post52.html
imho alcoholism is treatable.
http://www.pprune.org/3028059-post52.html
imho alcoholism is treatable.
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imho alcoholism is treatable.
Futhermore, almost all treatments are based on the 12 Step programme originally invented by the founders of AA and hijacked (what a word to use on PPRune!) by the rehab hospitals. The treatment includes removal of triggers; the worst triggers for an alcoholic to slip happen many times a day for the typical airline pilot and are unavoidable in this job. Suppose you were a commercial beekeeper for a living and suddenly became hyper-sensitive to bee stings, that now cause anapylactic shock, (this is a real problem and does happen) would you still work the hives?
"Lyle Prouse".
so dumb that you ask whether they are smart enough to be doing such a responsible job.
westhawk
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Why not add a simulator check too?
Westhawk......afraid I don't quite see the analogy, although I do get the sense! After three decades of pulling the pole in those military mach-beaters; having lost a few mates who ended up on the wrong side of the 'battle with bottle to throttle', find this very simple procedure (takes three minutes including the sign in) extremely effective, and ensures that we don't endanger fare paying public with this avoidable issue.
Bottomline....stops a defaulter from getting anywhere near the Gate.
Bottomline....stops a defaulter from getting anywhere near the Gate.
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100% BAC testing of all flight crew makes a lot of sense. Takes all the guesswork out and home testers are very reliable and cheap so there's no reason why anyone would present with positive BAC. If they slip-up after a late drinks gathering, they can phone-in sick. Good for pilots, public and airlines.
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westhawk
That's also mainstream thinking in the treatment of alcoholism and other chemical dependency (aside from nicotine which is different). The difference is important to the clinician treating the alcoholic but not an airline. The airline needs to ensure that its pilots turn up for work fit for work. Those who don't, particularly those with some long-term hard-to-treat illness need to be moved out of operational flying duty into some other role, or let-go. When it comes to large numbers of people at real risk, then due diligence demands a low-tolerance to such issues and in the case of alcohol the technology is so simple and affordable that the tolerance can be close to zero. As everyone here knows, for sure, everyone has some ethanol in their blood...it's never zero as in 0.00% but there is a level that can distinguish between nominal zero and zero zero.
Those whose emotions lead to the bottle without adequate time to throttle are not fit to fly airliners. They need to phone-in sick if they have a temporary problem...no need to mention drink at all.
All rules need boundaries or they are unenforceable. Why is the age of sexual consent in the UK 16 years? At 2345 UTC you've assaulted a minor whose birthday is tomorrow. What about DST? Or other time zones? Suppose the minor was actually born in a zone GMT - 6 hours? Have you still assaulted them? Is it the time of birth or the date of the certificate? Even those boundaries that seem straightforward are subject to argument
Quite so, but from what I've seen in real life it's usually more to do with the emotions than the intellect.
Those whose emotions lead to the bottle without adequate time to throttle are not fit to fly airliners. They need to phone-in sick if they have a temporary problem...no need to mention drink at all.
All rules need boundaries or they are unenforceable. Why is the age of sexual consent in the UK 16 years? At 2345 UTC you've assaulted a minor whose birthday is tomorrow. What about DST? Or other time zones? Suppose the minor was actually born in a zone GMT - 6 hours? Have you still assaulted them? Is it the time of birth or the date of the certificate? Even those boundaries that seem straightforward are subject to argument
Well Dynamite my objections to this approach have more to do with the kind of world we are to live in. I already greatly resent the post 9/11 world of aviation security in the form of the TSA and their rampant disregard for common sense. I feel that autocratic measures such as mandatory drug and alcohol testing already go too far and am opposed to adding any more. It is a tiny problem that could be better addressed through other measures than distrusting an entire group completely innocent of any wrongdoing regarding alcohol/drugs. If anything the preflight sim check makes more sense!
Anyway no offense is intended by my sarcasm. The dystopian sci-fi novels I refer to include Brave New World by Huxley, 1984 by Orwell, If This Goes On and Coventry by Heinlein, This Perfect Day by Levin, Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury and many other sci-fi stories by authors like Clarke and Asimov. Classic stuff that was just as much about societal observations pertinent to the times in which they were written as the fictional stories they told. In essence the stories were vehicles to present the authors ideology in fictional story form.
Have good day all.
westhawk
Anyway no offense is intended by my sarcasm. The dystopian sci-fi novels I refer to include Brave New World by Huxley, 1984 by Orwell, If This Goes On and Coventry by Heinlein, This Perfect Day by Levin, Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury and many other sci-fi stories by authors like Clarke and Asimov. Classic stuff that was just as much about societal observations pertinent to the times in which they were written as the fictional stories they told. In essence the stories were vehicles to present the authors ideology in fictional story form.
Have good day all.
westhawk
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It's good if you don't believe in civil rights or human dignity.......
I'm not sure that it's 'undignified' to blow into an intoximeter? Since the tester doesn't know me from Adam it isn't personal...I just don't care. Others might care, and I understand that but what about passengers? Employers? I don't see the 'civil rights' argument at all. Every jockey is weighed before the race and after. Is that 'undignified' and against 'civil rights'? In any case, random testing is normal and accepted. I'd find it far more undignified to be tested because I looked out of sorts (when I wasn't) than be tested before every flight.
I think it'll come. Would be better to put the effort into making sure that the procedure and consequences on fail are acceptable than try to sandbank the water-meadows from the river.
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westhawk --
I'm with you 100% on this, in general. But alcoholism is a mental illness. Those who are not alcoholic but who slip up by accident should have self-tested after a boozy session. If they don't self-test BAC can they be relied upon to even do a proper pre-flight?
PRE-FLIGHT CHECKS
1. Are captain and crew sober and fit to fly?....
Well Dynamite my objections to this approach have more to do with the kind of world we are to live in.
PRE-FLIGHT CHECKS
1. Are captain and crew sober and fit to fly?....
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Do Russian pilots have drinking problems?
I would be very interested to know if a similar programme of treatment exists in Russia, where vodka is part of the culture.
I would be very interested to know if a similar programme of treatment exists in Russia, where vodka is part of the culture.
12.9.2012 An-28 Kamchatka - both pilots (!)(investigated also the grown crew)
20.6.2011 Tu-134 Petrozavodsk - navigator (short after that the company lost AOC)
14.9.2008 B737 Perm, CPT (Aeroflot ends the cooperation with the company and it was sold)
Despite this, there are very big differences in drinking in Russia. Cities x villages, educated x non educated, employed x unemployed, young x old etc. Vodka is not important part of culture for qualified and educated people with good job in cities like Moscow or S. Petersburg. I guess it is fully comparable with a rest of the world.
Last edited by Karel_x; 6th Jan 2013 at 21:00.
Those who don't, particularly those with some long-term hard-to-treat illness need to be moved out of operational flying duty into some other role, or let-go.
I also think it's time to admit that the "disease" didn't make someone show up half in the bag. That was a choice. A poor choice that should be dealt with by removal from flying duty today and depending on the full circumstances perhaps forever, at least for this company. I know I wouldn't tolerate it as a boss. Call in sick, ask for treatment, seek treatment outside, whatever. Show up impaired and you're out. We just don't need pilots with that kind of judgment. If somebody calls in sick too much they're gone too, but at least they didn't endanger their license their life or anyone elses. Perhaps they should seek treatment before it really starts costing them. Then if they have the stones to complete the process they'll have their chance at redemption. But after showing up tanked is a little late in my book.
It's not always easy to be both compassionate towards someone with a sickness yet intolerant of willful negligence. But that's how I am on this subject. Others may disagree.
westhawk
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Tests
Not condoning any guys heading to work when they shouldnt, but just exactly how many accidents were attributable to drug or alcohol present in a pilots system... My guess is.... Almost none!
So what is the risk / consequence /probability of this issue causing an accident versus other factors we accept ( mostly) without question such as fatigue, poor training , aircraft that have design flaws with paper procedures that have to be recalled on a dark and stormy night to keep them flying ( ref Airbus) etc etc...
By the way, even though most companies have a zero level, several regulators globally have a .04 BAC in the legislation as well as a 8 hr + bottle to throttle...
So there is not an agreed position or world best practice in the first place...
Frankly give me a "chuck yeager"in a cockpit with a beer under his belt than some of the products from the continued race to the bottom training systems...
But the law is the law so that ends the rhetoric or " gedankan " experiment...
So what is the risk / consequence /probability of this issue causing an accident versus other factors we accept ( mostly) without question such as fatigue, poor training , aircraft that have design flaws with paper procedures that have to be recalled on a dark and stormy night to keep them flying ( ref Airbus) etc etc...
By the way, even though most companies have a zero level, several regulators globally have a .04 BAC in the legislation as well as a 8 hr + bottle to throttle...
So there is not an agreed position or world best practice in the first place...
Frankly give me a "chuck yeager"in a cockpit with a beer under his belt than some of the products from the continued race to the bottom training systems...
But the law is the law so that ends the rhetoric or " gedankan " experiment...