naming and shaming - cui bono?

[Lemain]

westhawk -- Yes, was a good discussion, my pleasure. Good day to you...and Happy New Year. Glad to hear that my American cousins didn't all fall off that dreadful cliff!

[Huck]

I don't see the 'civil rights' argument at all.

I can see that.

Police could solve many more crimes if they could ignore constitutional protections also. But that don't make it right.

The previous poster hit the nail on the head. I cannot name a non-russian airline accident caused by alcohol abuse. I can name one dozen caused by lack of basic flying skills. Perhaps every pilot should be required to demonstrate a simple stall recovery in a simulator when they duty in to work.........

[sevenstrokeroll]

it really isn't 8 hours botttttle to throttttle

our airline has a rule of 12 hours to report, we report an hour before flight so, its really 13 hours bottle to throttle.

as it is in our ops specs/FOM, it has the weight of a FAA regulation.

also a specific number on a blood test.

[Lemain]

our airline has a rule of 12 hours to report, we report an hour before flight so, its really 13 hours bottle to throttle

Fine for normal social drinkers. Not for alcoholics. If I had to be piloted by an active drinking alcoholic pilot I'd give him a half litre of vodka half an hour before take off. Better still, take the bus.

[Uncle Fred]

westhawk stated:

It's not always easy to be both compassionate towards someone with a sickness yet intolerant of willful negligence. But that's how I am on this subject. Others may disagree.

Well said westhawk and I would like to think that many do agree with you. The idea of trying to understand another person's struggles is something to which we should all aspire. Yet we also need to be mindful of what would bring them to work in such a diminished state and that they must be prevented from being at the controls.

I think the points made by westhawk, Lemain, and Huck are some of the best that I have read on this topic and I commend them for raising the level of the discussion--very good reading.

[DownIn3Green]

Well, I suppose I'm goimg to catch hell for this, but here I go...

WoodJA51 makes a good point re: Chuck Yeager...however, Gen Yeager was in his A/C ALONE...

I have always belived Rules were made for idiots with no common sense...

Getting back to the theme of this thread, some folks seem to feel that it is OK to be a little under the weather when flying...

I might agree with this, but the theory of a little bit won't hurt...

And probably under normal operations everything should be OK...

So now you lose an engine after V1, and the second engine on the same wing shuts down due to debris...

That bit of "under the weather" that you took off with has just killed 200 plus pax plus your crew...

Anyone who doesn't like this post, get the PPrune breathalizer out, because I'm definately "PUI"...(posting umder the influence)...Sorry for my luck...DI3G...

[mary meagher]

There is a poster nailed to the door of the loo in my gliding club; IMSAFE. You all know what it means....there are a lot of conditions that should cause you to decline to fly, illness, medication, alcohol, fatigue, emotional upset. Probably the biggest cause of unfitness to fly, considering modern conditions of employment, would be fatigue, certainly a factor in the Colgan disaster. BUT the stupidest reason for being unfit is alcohol, and I am absolutely in favour of a breath test as a matter of simple routine. Low cost, universal, and if you know you have to take one you wouldn't be stupid enough to drink, would you?

A shame about alcoholics, recovering or otherwise, I have four in my immediate family alone, and if tempted I could easily fall into the syndrome. BUT there are a lot of guys out there who would LOVE to have a job flying for the airlines. If you feel sorry for any recovering alcoholics, give them a job on the ground, and let them get their kicks flying alone where nobody else gets hurt.

[Dg800]

It's good if you don't believe in civil rights or human dignity.......

If we were talking about every single citizen being screened in the morning before even being let out of their home, then you'd have a point. As we're only talking about a select group of people being tested right before being entrusted with several hundreds of lives, I think that screaming "Human rights violation!" is a bit over-the-top if not outright ridiculous.

[Dynamite1]

Downin3,Mary & DG..

spot on folks...as it is drivers today combat many connected issues; circadian, fatigue, irrational scheduling, prolonged layovers.....and other usual occupational hazards (lack of skill?)....one less off the list can only help stay atop the ship....
While a simple breath analyzer test (0 reading at my latitude) is no skin off my back; there will always be a contrary opinion!
cheers all..

[sevenstrokeroll]

Breath test

I've been earning a living as a pilot since 1979

I would be very happy to do a breath test prior to each flight/takeoff etc.

I do support this...I also support anyone who commands a nuclear weapons system (eg: president obama) does the same thing along with random drug testing.

Of course I don't drink or use illegal drugs.

[con-pilot]

I do support this...I also support anyone who commands a nuclear weapons system (eg: president obama) does the same thing along with random drug testing.

Along with every surgeon just prior to performing surgery.

Every bus driver before they get on a bus.

Every train engineer just before they get into the engine cab.

Every ship captain before they get on the bridge.

Every truck driver before they can get into the truck.

Every police officer before they report for duty.

Etc.

[deptrai]

Every bus driver before they get on a bus

this is already happening...during the last 4-5 years, several cities in Sweden, Norway and Finland (a country with a similar drinking problem like Russia...) have tested a "breath alcohol locks" which require bus drivers to push a button and then blow into a breathalyzer which is connected to the engine control unit. If alcohol is detected, a red light goes on, and the engine won't start. After initial scepticism, bus drivers now seem to accept it, and it will be rolled out on a full scale in several cities. I think some legislators in New York want to make this mandatory for school buses. I haven't made up my mind on this, but I'm not entirely against it. In principle, I don't like the increased "surveillance" of innocent people who are not at fault in any way, and generally I like the idea of trusting other people, but on the other hand it seems to be a relatively inexpensive way to prevent drunk driving (and potentially save lives).

Simple technology, no police involved...it prevents people from drunk driving, instead of punishing them for it (and is probably more cost effective for society than sending offenders to prison and victims to the hospital).

I don't see this coming to aircraft anytime soon, I think the case for airplanes is less compelling, as there are far more drunk driving accidents than "FUI" accidents, and it would be a long road to get it certified...but in places where "FUI" accidents have happened, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

[mary meagher]

con-pilot, that's an interesting list you propose for regular breath testing for alcohol. In addition to President Obama, as proposed by seven-stroke-roll.

Let me go down the list and see if these are comparable to piloting an aircraft in risk to the general public.

1) Surgeons generally only kill one patient at a time.
2) Train drivers don't have to steer or navigate, and they usually survive mid track collisions
3) Truck and bus drivers and car drivers and police officers constitute such an enormous population of potential drinkers that setting up a universal pre-driving or pre-use of firearms breath test would be impractical. They also usually only kill one or two victims at a time.
4) Ship captains, since the Titanic, usually carry sufficient lifeboats and have time to use them if they do something stupid, like showing off and running aground. This is not necessarily true in third world countries, or smuggling illegal aliens into Europe or the United States, but once again, enforcement is impractical.

So sorry, all you sensitive airline pilots, suffering from six monthly medicals, yearly sim sessions, and the financial squeeze of salary that is always a problem for pilots and librarians - if it is a desirable occupation, there is an oversupply of aspirants. Supply and demand. So guess you'll just have to pucker up and blow.

[Basil]

six monthly medicals, yearly sim sessions *

Recollect mentioning to my AME, as he carried out his simple, but lucrative, check of the Bas mind and body, that no-one ever checked him.
AME: "I read The Lancet"
Bas: "But no-one asks you questions about it!"


* Six monthly sim sessions of two days each in the airlines for which I've flown