Aurela (Operating for Monarch) off the runway at BHX
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The 15 threshold end of the runway is ungrooved concrete which has the potential to be slippery when wet.
It isn't the first or the last plane to slide on it. Its not part of the live runway could they not put some shell grip or something similar on it preferably in a none grey colour.
On another note its a bit of a sod to see planes which are lined up on it as well if they have a light colour scheme.
Last edited by mad_jock; 22nd Sep 2012 at 10:57.
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EGBB 211350Z 36006KT 8000 -RA SCT006 BKN012 11/10 Q1014=
EGBB 211320Z 36007KT 9000 -RA BKN006 BKN008 11/11 Q1014=
EGBB 211250Z 01006KT 9999 -RA SCT006 BKN008 11/11 Q1014=
My theory,
Wind from the north and associated fun in the flare due to the terminal.
Puts it down near T1 doesn't make Bravo or has never planned for it, one up the chuff already talking to tower trys to help expediting to A1 goes for the turn and goes straight.
Could have happened to anyone that hadn't been on that section of runway before when its wet.
EGBB 211320Z 36007KT 9000 -RA BKN006 BKN008 11/11 Q1014=
EGBB 211250Z 01006KT 9999 -RA SCT006 BKN008 11/11 Q1014=
My theory,
Wind from the north and associated fun in the flare due to the terminal.
Puts it down near T1 doesn't make Bravo or has never planned for it, one up the chuff already talking to tower trys to help expediting to A1 goes for the turn and goes straight.
Could have happened to anyone that hadn't been on that section of runway before when its wet.
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Firefly
When I buy a brand it speaks something to me about why they do what they do. Flying on a clapped out Lithuanian a/c, however safe etc, is just not the same as on a Monarch badged and operated machine. I understand the reasons for doing it but, in my opinion, it's a bad business move.
When I buy a brand it speaks something to me about why they do what they do. Flying on a clapped out Lithuanian a/c, however safe etc, is just not the same as on a Monarch badged and operated machine. I understand the reasons for doing it but, in my opinion, it's a bad business move.
I was flying a beaten up old 737 and we were subbed to Lufhansa, Air France, TAP, Swiss Air - you name it, we did it. But I felt sorry for the passengers who had paid premium rate expecting a fantastic service, and ended up flying on the world's oldest 737 with the world's most junior crew.
If you don't want to run the risk of being flown on a lease aircraft when booking with a low-cost airline...fly with a company such as BA.
Last edited by silverstrata; 22nd Sep 2012 at 11:31.
Despite popular and armchair expert opinion there are not aircraft just sitting around waiting for airlines to pick them up at "aircraft'R'us" and the crewing process will take a minimum of 6 months.
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Monarch took a chance?
A lot of people had raised eyebrows when Monarch agreed to sub lease capacity with Aureloa & small planet.
There is a world of difference between what Easyjet, BA,LS & ZB do when they find themselves short of crew due sickness or aircraft after ramp damage (BA 734 ) and in rent in the likes of Titan Airways to keep the show on the road. What ZB have done here is put a program on sale knowing full well that they have neither the crews or the aircraft to fly that program.
It would be premature to prejudge what went wrong at BHX and the crew and their adherence to SOP may well be exonerated,but we sometimes forget that in the UK the majority of operators have very high standards of SOP compliance and that in some parts of Europe it's still the wild wild west, the pilots that have been around know this only too well!
Thankfully no one was hurt, but that could equally have been the end of R14 at LBA where Monarch might have not so easily been able brush this under the carpet!!
There is a world of difference between what Easyjet, BA,LS & ZB do when they find themselves short of crew due sickness or aircraft after ramp damage (BA 734 ) and in rent in the likes of Titan Airways to keep the show on the road. What ZB have done here is put a program on sale knowing full well that they have neither the crews or the aircraft to fly that program.
It would be premature to prejudge what went wrong at BHX and the crew and their adherence to SOP may well be exonerated,but we sometimes forget that in the UK the majority of operators have very high standards of SOP compliance and that in some parts of Europe it's still the wild wild west, the pilots that have been around know this only too well!
Thankfully no one was hurt, but that could equally have been the end of R14 at LBA where Monarch might have not so easily been able brush this under the carpet!!
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Some interesting points being made - and a lot of hogwash as well.
Don't remember anybody making a comment about Stabilized Approaches yet.
Methinks this had more than just a little to do with it
And a PR spin doctor, given a choice, would much rather have to deal with a taxying accident, rather than a landing accident.
However, the position of the aircraft definitely supports the latter, rather than the former.
Don't remember anybody making a comment about Stabilized Approaches yet.
Methinks this had more than just a little to do with it
And a PR spin doctor, given a choice, would much rather have to deal with a taxying accident, rather than a landing accident.
However, the position of the aircraft definitely supports the latter, rather than the former.
Puts it down near T1 doesn't make Bravo or has never planned for it, one up the chuff already talking to tower trys to help expediting to A1 goes for the turn and goes straight.
In fact the only thing that's beyond dispute is that he failed to accomplish the 90° turn onto the Alpha taxiway, for whatever reason.
Still, it's always good to leave a bit for the AAIB guys to do ...
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Firefly
When I buy a brand it speaks something to me about why they do what they do. Flying on a clapped out Lithuanian a/c, however safe etc, is just not the same as on a Monarch badged and operated machine. I understand the reasons for doing it but, in my opinion, it's a bad business move.
When I buy a brand it speaks something to me about why they do what they do. Flying on a clapped out Lithuanian a/c, however safe etc, is just not the same as on a Monarch badged and operated machine. I understand the reasons for doing it but, in my opinion, it's a bad business move.
I was flying a beaten up old 737 and we were subbed to Lufhansa, Air France, TAP, Swiss Air - you name it, we did it. But I felt sorry for the passengers who had paid premium rate expecting a fantastic service, and ended up flying on the world's oldest 737 with the world's most junior crew.
If you don't want to run the risk of being flown on a lease aircraft when booking with a low-cost airline...fly with a company such as BA.
.
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it was only a theory and was meant to come away from they must have had a knackard aircraft, poor training etc etc.
Not long as such within the zone just nearer T1 than maybe the crew would have wished. It can be a tad interesting from the north at certain wind speeds.
And that end is pretty well known for being slippy as hell when wet but its not mentioned on the charts. Even in a sub 15 ton TP I have seen lost steering and the day saved with a huge blast of beta reverse at less than 15nts when bravo was shut.
So my post was more in sympathy for the crew. I have no doudt it will be down to multiple factors leading to the incident which will land on the PIC's shoulders but I for one can understand what may have got them. And by the grace of god go I after my "oh heck" moment.
Not long as such within the zone just nearer T1 than maybe the crew would have wished. It can be a tad interesting from the north at certain wind speeds.
And that end is pretty well known for being slippy as hell when wet but its not mentioned on the charts. Even in a sub 15 ton TP I have seen lost steering and the day saved with a huge blast of beta reverse at less than 15nts when bravo was shut.
So my post was more in sympathy for the crew. I have no doudt it will be down to multiple factors leading to the incident which will land on the PIC's shoulders but I for one can understand what may have got them. And by the grace of god go I after my "oh heck" moment.
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Jock,
Well done mate, I applaud your efforts to deflect this discussion away from obnoxious narcissism and self-pride; and direct it to towards humility, realism and information based on facts.
Aurela - EASA operator, as is smartlynx (pictured above, not that they have anything to do with this).
Well done mate, I applaud your efforts to deflect this discussion away from obnoxious narcissism and self-pride; and direct it to towards humility, realism and information based on facts.
Aurela - EASA operator, as is smartlynx (pictured above, not that they have anything to do with this).
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Let's point out
guys should I be surprised about some posts here?Have friend in Aurela so in Small Planet both Lithuanian operator, flying B737-300.
Let' say fisrt of all that i'm agree wih you all they are Easa qualified but believe me or not, there is nothing standard!!!
No call out at all, poor SOP, old russian style Cpt and very very poor english (can't understand at all how they pass nowadays the ELP test!!!!) and last but not least maintenance!! It sucks! believe me! I've been in contact and still right now with these guys and they told me a lot of creepy stuff..anyway they have got even a lot of problem with SAFA, but they still survived till when??..nobody knows!
The after landing procedures as someone said, start upon vacating the runway after Cpt retract Speedbrake and in any case it must take even less than 30".
Usually in EGBB aircraft are able to vacate at B but the aircraft is at the end of the Rwy and the actually metar at that time, was not so bad, but guys you have to know that in these kind of Operator, they really don't know how to flare, VRef that usually is 3 times corrected so as to be increased ( they are very careful about that and afraid) and in the same time they maybe don't understand properly what is the LDA calculation!
And what about Autobrakes!!!?? even in Rwy with more than 14thd feet thay use pos.2..do you believe that!!! but is the truee.
Air Italy is an Italian Operator and it mustn't been compared with these Lithuanian Operator..Air Italy have a strict SOP and well organized company with qualified and prepared Pilots!
The shame and only fault is with Monarch and other West European company that decrease safety margin leasing from East and increasing they pocket with money!
..They really have to think about that!And forgettable in short time!!
i don't think so and what if there was even a catastrophic event??...Monarch will lose face, money, and they operation!!
"It isn't the first or the last plane to slide on it. Its not part of the live runway could they not put some shell grip or something similar on it preferably in a none grey colour. "
I believe the runway is going to be completely resurfaced as part of the extension works, so the concrete should be covered over with asphalt
I believe the runway is going to be completely resurfaced as part of the extension works, so the concrete should be covered over with asphalt
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Surely until the facts of the matter are published in a official report its hardly appropiate to be casting aspertions AFAIK the airline concerned do not have a poor safety record, accidents can happen to the biggest and best of us
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'anyway they have got even a lot of problem with SAFA'
These airlines are paranoid about SAFA inspections, however the SAFA only scratches the surface and will not find the operational shortcomings.
It will be very interesting to see how detailed the Monarch audit of this operator was. I would want to know how many flights had been observed by Monarch check pilots, how many simulator training details did they observe. Did they have the flight safety department visit the offices and check the systems in place, that reports had been followed up etc
I would also question the tour operators who are using and even basing these type of aircraft in places like the UK. There is no way I would put my family or friends on one of these carriers. The relevent aviation authorities can't give proper oversight in their own back yards, let alone 700 miles away.
The problem is that they are operating in the same sky as all of us.
These airlines are paranoid about SAFA inspections, however the SAFA only scratches the surface and will not find the operational shortcomings.
It will be very interesting to see how detailed the Monarch audit of this operator was. I would want to know how many flights had been observed by Monarch check pilots, how many simulator training details did they observe. Did they have the flight safety department visit the offices and check the systems in place, that reports had been followed up etc
I would also question the tour operators who are using and even basing these type of aircraft in places like the UK. There is no way I would put my family or friends on one of these carriers. The relevent aviation authorities can't give proper oversight in their own back yards, let alone 700 miles away.
The problem is that they are operating in the same sky as all of us.
Last edited by trackfpa320; 22nd Sep 2012 at 15:38.
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All is well, then?
Cockygashandlazy (thought you were a loco at first) Quote:-
"Aurela - EASA operator,as is smartlynx...."
Ohh well, that's all right then, isn't it? What could possibly go wrong?
"Aurela - EASA operator,as is smartlynx...."
Ohh well, that's all right then, isn't it? What could possibly go wrong?
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Question: What sort of on-going, in-situ 'line' checks (if any) do British airline companies apply to their sub-contractors to ensure that (presumably) pre-determined and contractual standards of safety and professionalism are being complied with?