Take off with snow on wing

[UUUWZDZX]

I don't know about Aeroflot's or Airbus's manuals, but the takeoff in the video would have been a gross violation from my particular seat.

They don't differ from Boeing procedures on this matter:

A320 FCOM SUPPLEMENTARY PROCEDURES - ADVERSE WEATHER - COLD WEATHER:

EXTERIOR EXPECTION
[...]
SURFACES....CHECKED FREE OF FROST, ICE AND SNOW

All surfaces of the aircraft (critical surfaces : leading edges and upper surfaces of wings, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, all control surfaces, slats and flaps) must be clear of snow, frost and ice for takeoff.

Thin hoarfrost is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage.

Note: Thin hoarfrost is typically a white crystalline deposit which usually develops uniformly on exposed surfaces on cold and cloudless nights; it is so thin that a person can distinguish surface features (lines or markings) beneath it.




SOP of Aeroflot part B (operation of A320):

COLD WEATHER AND FLUID RUNWAY CONTAMINATED OPERATIONS

EXTERIOR INSPECTION
[...]
SURFACES ... CHECKED FREE OF FROST, ICE AND SNOW

All surfaces of the aircraft (critical surfaces: leading edges and upper surfaces of wings, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, all control surfaces, slats and flaps) must be clear of snow, frost and ice, otherwise consider to perform de-/anti-icing. [ They even added this bit to reinforce that de-/anti-icing must be performed in this case ]

Note: Thin hoarfrost is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage and pilot can distinguish surface features (lines and markings) beneath it. Frost is acceptable on the underside of the wing tank area, a max layer of 3mm.


SOP of Aeroflot part A (General Procedures)

Written wholly in russian, it specifically states that if OAT is 6C and below, person charged with preparing acft for departure must check for hoarfrost or snow/ice deposits on all parts of acft. If found, then he orders de-icing procedure to remove these deposits. If OAT is below 15C, check for fuel frost and order de-icing if fuel frost present.

Just for the record, here is the original:

ИТП АТЦ, ответственный за подготовку ВС к вылету:

- при температуре наружного воздуха +15°С и ниже обязан проверить верхнюю и нижнюю поверхности крыла в районе расходных секций топливных баков на предмет отсутствия топливного льда (особенно при подготовке ВС к вылету при кратковременной стоянке после выполнения полета);

- при температуре наружного воздуха от +6°С и ниже, обязан проверить
отсутствие инея и снежно-ледяных отложений на всей поверхности самолета;

- при обнаружении инея или снежно-ледяных отложений на поверхности
самолета ИТП ответственный за подготовку ВС к вылету принимает
меры по их удалению, для чего заказывает спецмашину для проведения
процедуры удаления обледенения;

- по прибытию на ВС экипажа, ИТП докладывает КВС о результате
осмотра поверхностей самолета и о необходимости выполнения ПОО.

[BobnSpike]

The wording in my FCOM (in English) is almost identical to that. Here is what I was getting at with the dry snow/accumulation thing:

Copied/pasted from my Deice manual:

...3. In very cold conditions (generally below -10 to -15°C (14 to 5°F) or colder) dry snow can fall onto cold aircraft wings. Under these conditions, dry snow will swirl as it blows across the wings, making it evident the snow is not adhering. But if snow has accumulated on the surface of the wings it has to be removed prior to takeoff. It cannot be assumed that accumulations of snow will blow off during takeoff

NOTE: An accumulation is any amount of snow beneath which defined
markings (decals, paint stripes, rivets, etc.) cannot be observed.

Not much room for interpretation there.

[DX Wombat]

MAS, thank you, it was genuine curiosity.

[UUUWZDZX]

Finally we have some progress with media

Video of Snow-Covered Aeroflot Wing Goes Viral Amid Air Safety Fears | News | The Moscow Times

[up_down_n_out]

"Finally we have some progress with media"
yeaa right so you know how to make a yandex search

I think the mere quantities of posts you are making & this comment using "we", could lay you open to charges of ulterior motives, inbalance, or vendetta in a country where these are easily turned into criminal charges.

(by now the AFL seat number, ID, IP address, provider, home address of the video's author will have been sent to the FSB).
Easy homework in reality.

There is nothing called anonymity in a country where everyone is registered somewhere, & easy covert surveying.

There was one like this (polish, can't remember his name) on the Smolensk TU154 tragedy thread.
In the end the "slavic" dog & a bone temperament so gets up people's noses it p...ses people off. BADLY.

Thinly disguised, all the bloke wanted to get across was that public life in his country was corrupt and cynical.

YEAA right, so what? You know that.

For this reason if none other, it would be well advised to "lay off" the "campaign" and relax a bit while real pilots are given a chance.

pazhalsta!

[1999]

Up-down-n-out .. what's the point you are trying to make here?
I aplaude the guy who posted that video and let the interested public know about the matter...
"You" can talk about do rights and do wrongs here as long as you want... and naming in the public the involved airliners/pilots and their rights of a fair trials etc ...
Although as I do work in the safety field of the aviation bussines, my post is strictly as a potential passenger - and I DO want to know which airliners are prone to/or have the history or evidence of avoiding or not being strict to the prescribed procedures and thus putting my life at risk.
So as long as I'm a paying customer I will chose which airliners to avoid at all costs. The evidence in that video in MY opinion is self explanatory. PERIOD.

It's not about the nationality/race etc - bad apples can be found anywhere around the globe - but the fact is "the slavic" folks as you mentioned them in your post do have a different mentality in that regard primarly because of the "****** up political system" they lived in/for after the 2nd WW - and unfortunately it's still present to this day in all walks of life - and YES IT IS CORRUPT and PRONE TO COVER UP WRONG THINGS AND DOINGS and insted of changing things for the better such mentality would rather search for and "kill the messenger" - you just gave me the proof I was again unfortunately right about such mindset.
And trust me - I know what I'm talking about since I have lived amongst this f*** ups and witnessed it for the last 40 years or so and still do to this day.

1999

[5 APUs captain]

1999
...but the fact is "the slavic" folks as you mentioned them in your post do have a different mentality in that regard primarly because of the "****** up political system" they lived in/for after the 2nd WW....
======================================================
Political system has crashed with Gorbachev and Eltsin - USSR collapse made a collapse in everything! - education, SOPs etc
Now about the topic:
1. The wing profile of soviet airplanes is much thicker then westerns! That's why it is permitted to have some DRY snow on a wing of "russian" airplane - it is not so vital like for CRJ for example. And that should be explained to ex-soviet drivers!
2. According UTair SOPs - the technician at base airport is responsible to check the contaminant on a wing and inform the captain about....
3. Anyway final decision shall be made by Captain - desicion was wrong.......

[CaptainProp]

1:39 and flaps 1+F are still out

This is not necessarily something strange on some of the departures out of SVO as there are speed restrictions and multiple < 90˚turns as you climb out. If you are heavy, maintaining slats/flaps will give you better speed margins during these turns.

[hetfield]

The only reason for AFL to make such an ignorant statement is, for me at least, there must have been some big shots up front, not of those thousands of ordinary aeroflot jockeys.

[9.G]

to label certain nations or bloodlines etc is wrong in my opinion. It's the system in place which either supports safety or erodes such. Fair proceedings and accountability for actions are two ingredients certainly supporting safety. I've seen similar screw ups elsewhere and all places lacked accountability and had established nepotism along in-transparent proceedings with unfair results. There's a common trait in general towards most things in life, it's nihilism.
It's a free market and everyone should have a choice. It's up to the operator to create it's reputation and marketing image. AFL didn't do well in this particular case. Neither was their mitigation tactic appropriate resulting in significant image damage. All this fuss about CIA and they're gonna get you is utter BS. They're way too busy planting agents all over US. Anyways, the transportation devision of DA office will get involved for sure provided there's a official report. According to their laws a unanimous report will NOT be processed. I'm sure UUUWZDZX knows that. Thus if you wanna do something do it officially.
For your info, just tip, FCOM isn't a binding document it's a manufacturer's recommendation whereas part A is approved by CAA. Any violation of part A will be prosecuted by authorities. There's a moral side and a legal side.

[1999]

9G - if you by any chance refer to my post regarding "nation labelling and stuff " then i would like to emphesise as in my post again :
IT IS NOT about nationality/race - but about the COVER UP and "unsuccesfull "damage control on AFL part ... it's about the mind set SYSTEM of the many from the former Eastern block where second questioning of the higher authorities and pointing out the wrongs was not generally acceptable and definitely not promoted. The same mindset unfortunately remained unchanged despite the known "political" changes at the end of 90's amongst the great general population. That is the "menthality" I was talking about - and as i said earlier - it's still present in all fields and aspects of life(although things are slowly progressing in positive direction - if the few guys who posted here and condemned the action of their colleague are really AFL pilots I salute them).
To clarify things on my part - I come from (and have spent 40+ years here) one of the countries from the former eastern block(not Russia or any of the former SU states though) therefore i'm "Slavic" according to such classification - so my comments of the subject are based on my personal experiance and observations of everyday life .
The fact is - I personally would take for example German efficiency/safety/strictness over so called "Slavic" or "Mediteranean " any day! And again - I am so called "Slavic" .

But in this "politically correct" times when naming things with their true names is a big NO-NO, IMO just helps the fact that matters and standards in certain regions of the globe don't get sorted out as quickly as they should and could.( e.g. language proficiency, adherence to the standards etc..etc..) .
And to stay on the subject - whether to de-ice or not ..just opened the second bigger question to which I was reffering - whether to publicise such events or not ( as was the similar case back in Boston with IBE) - and to the 2nd one I say hell YES .
I don't mind and dare to question the authority of the Captains on their airplanes - but I do want to, as a paying soul, have the freedom of choice (and all the information possible regarding their standards of operation) not to board their airplanes in the first place .

1999

[lomapaseo]

up down n out

"Finally we have some progress with media"
yeaa right so you know how to make a yandex search

I think the mere quantities of posts you are making & this comment using "we", could lay you open to charges of ulterior motives, inbalance, or vendetta in a country where these are easily turned into criminal charges.

(by now the AFL seat number, ID, IP address, provider, home address of the video's author will have been sent to the FSB).
Easy homework in reality.

There is nothing called anonymity in a country where everyone is registered somewhere, & easy covert surveying.

There are right ways and wrong ways of yelling "fire" et al. The context and audience are important. The sheer fact that an alert to authoritative multiple sources has been given is sufficient. The fact that a rejection of this alert has been received which is contrary to multiple opinions is IMO grounds to escalate the alert.

Considering the broad impications of trying to silence the message among all its supporters, it would be very unwise to even atempt it. The best that could be done would be to ignore it and try to hide from its message (lots of luck)

[gem380]

Please forgive my ignorance, I'm not a pilot, nor am I a member of any flight crew. I just have a keen interest in aviation.

The video was shocking, that's all I can say.
I can't comment on the airworthiness of the aircraft, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
But as a passenger, there is no way I would fly on an aircraft that has snow covered wings!!!!

Thanks to all the pilots out there that keep us safe in the air and take safety seriously! You do an amazing job, and I can imagine you don't often see much gratitude for the job you do!!

[Green Guard]

DX Wombat


nobody stops you of "deicing" your wings from "dandelion" type of DRY snow.... but you may run afterwords in different problems, like freezing of areas that were not frozen before...

Inuit Words for Snow

[DX Wombat]

Thank you GG. It sounds as if what is really needed is a drive-through huge hangar heated to such a temperature that all snow and ice are completely removed and the wings dried completely. That is just one of my fanciful ideas and would probably have the energy saving brigade up in arms at the thought of it. Having said that, when I was a District Midwife my car often got soaking wet and/or freezing in winter but a quick visit to the local Ambulance Dept which was beautifully warm usually solved the problem. Warmed me up too especially when I could scrounge a cup of hot coffee.

[ImbracableCrunk]

As an aside, I sat next to an Inuit on a flight to Fairbanks a few months ago (college student, not Inuit territory). She told me that whole, "There's 10,000 Inuit words for snow," is BS. They just have compound words, like German.

Drysnow
Westsnow
Blowingsnow
Snowflurries
Snowshowers
Snowbank
Snowdrift
Drivensnow
Snowberm
Powdersnow
Heavysnow
Moderatesnow
Lightsnow
etc.

OMG! Did you know English has 10,000 words for snow?

hahatla small packages of snow given as gag gifts semtla partially melted snow ontla snow on objects intla snow that has drifted indoors

Really? Intla means In snow? Ontla means On snow? Hahatla. . . Again: BS for the tourists and that list is satire.

[flying lid]

As an interlude to this long, interesting and rather frightening thread, this is a brilliant video of how "another" mode of transport dealt with snow nearly 50 years ago. (Bear with the backing music - it gets better !!).

(P.S. This was "The right kind" of snow !!!!)The wrong type of snow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Snow (1963) - YouTube

Lid

[ManaAdaSystem]

Green Guard

nobody stops you of "deicing" your wings from "dandelion" type of DRY snow.... but you may run afterwords in different problems, like freezing of areas that were not frozen before.

Care to clarify your statement? How does deice cause freezing? Have you heard of HOT, and do you know what those tables are used for?

[BobnSpike]

nobody stops you of "deicing" your wings from "dandelion" type of DRY snow.... but you may run afterwords in different problems, like freezing of areas that were not frozen before.

Said "different problems" are specifically addressed by the LOUT table: Lowest Operational Use Temperature, below which the fluid does not meet viscosity requirements. The LOUT table is included in the same publication as the HOT table.

It is clear-cut and in writing. There is no guesswork here and no supposition. There is no "but what if?" Either "you do" or "you don't" get sprayed. If there is contamination on the critical surfaces, they need to be de-iced. If the temperature is below LOUT for the fluid used and there is contamination on the critical surfaces you don't fly.

[Teddy Robinson]

A passionate connoisseur of fresh powder snow can tell you with authority that on that perfect Alpine day, it refuses to stick to anything, and leaves any smooth surface readily .. however we are pilots, there are policies in place to encourage good practice and avoid unnecessary loss of life, and that is our job.
Clean wing policy is what it says .. and if you think you know better on any given day? fine, take it for a circuit with no pax first and see how much your company thanks you. Test flying with pax is not professional whatever the departure from SOP .. QED