Take off with snow on wing

[BabyBear]

Originally Posted by DX Wombat

as have the people in the press department who apparently condoned the pilot's actions.

The above renders it hard to accept this was an isolated occurence through error or 'maverick' crew. Unlike the the crew who felt the risk worth taking I will not be risking whether the opertator actually puts it right or not. Irrespective of findings and promises I will never fly with this operator, period.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What's the betting that on a certain airline the rules about not using electronic gadgets during take-off will be enforced much more rigorously now? Plus, perhaps, an attempt to find and prosecute the person who posted the video, for illegal use of electronics during take-off?

[Pontius Navigator]

40 years ago we were cleared to take-off with 2-3 inches os snow on the wing.

I know the world has moved on since then but the conditions were above freezing in April and the aircraft had been deiced before the snow fell. We were assured that the snow would come off the wing at 50 kts.

As advertised the snow indeed fell clear at exactly the moment we were told it would. But . . .

We were #10 in a stream of aircraft departing at 30 second intervals. The previous 9 had all dumped their 4000 sq ft of snow at exactly the same point. As we reached 50 kts the snow fell off our wing and we hit a snow wall. There was a definite deceleration before we continued our take-off.

That snow has to go somewhere. And I have also experienced conditions were the deicing fluid wet the wing and froze in place. The moral - don't enter the active with snow on the wing.

[UUUWZDZX]

as have the people in the press department who apparently condoned the pilot's actions.

It was not a press department. Statement was made by Director of air safety deparment Alexandr Koldunov and deputy to CEO/operations director Igor Chalik. Both are also members of the board.

What is more astonishing is that these both persons hold commericial pilot licences:

Koldunov (born in 1952) in Aeroflot since 1976. Advanced from FO to Instructor pilot and head of safety department. Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Type-rated for IL-96 and B767 as instructor. Over 15 thousand flight hours.



Chalik (born in 1957) in Aeroflot since 1983. Used to be a pilot of TU-134, IL-86, A310, A320, A330 (chief pilot in AFL for A330). Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Around 14 thousand flight hours.



Source (in russian): link

PS. Images are official and from Aeroflot website.

Koldunov and Chalik's statement (be prepared, you won't believe these words): There are no violations whatsoever and this can be clearly seen on the video - snow has been blown off instantly [really ?!] during takeoff roll and therefore definitely didn't affect aerodynamics [really ?!] and safety. Safety is our priority.

Link (in russian): link

Needless to say that it was not blown off instantly (1), it was not blown off completely (2), it DID affect aerodynamics (deformed laminar flow thus increased stall speed, increased actual Vr speed and reduced critical AOA, among other things) (3), it also a clear violation of FCOM (4).

Clearly no pilot with a good state of mind will ever produce such a statement. They know it too, all this is - is an attempt to condone their pilots (or may be they genuinely think they are correct, who knows...). They given this statement thinking noone will dare to criticize it OR (which is more likely) noone in russia will ever appreciate how reckless such behavior is and therefore will never raise a concern (I did - sent them a link to youtube video with a word "shame" After receiving this statement from them, i've written a summary of A320 FCOM and Aeroflot SOP violations and basic outline why it did affect aerodynamics. Never heard a word from them since.).

[Ottoforce]

Snow on Wings

Maybe it's a THY A320 as the locals do it all the time !
They are beyond responsibility and safety flying.
Just say "IYI UCUSLAR" (god flight) and all will be well
Safe Flighting
OTTO:

[Cagedh]

They even do it in the U.K.

http://www.chirp.co.uk/downloads/CCFB/CCFB33.pdf

Read the article and look at the picture on page 2 of this CHIRP report.
Interesting reading material.

There's a topic about in the cabin crew section and a blog page on flightglobal.com.

[Craggenmore]

1:39 and flaps 1+F are still out

[JCviggen]

I flew Aeroflot on the 14th of march (just checked) SU231 - A320 MOW-BRU and pretty much the same thing happened.

I was near the wing and could very clearly see a layer of snow (not quite as thick as in this video but considerable regardless) on the wing that was swept off as we gathered speed during the take-off roll.

So to say this is an isolated case...don't think so. And I don't recall that we were in any kind of hurry to go. Plane was at the gate when I got there more than an hour before the flight and we boarded on time and landed 10 mins ahead of schedule (although there was a bit of a queue for TO with 1 RWY out of service due to snow crews working on it)

[jonseagull]

I saw an Aeroflot A320 taxi out at Oslo in heavy snow having heard him refuse de-icing. Following aircraft in the queue at the hold told the tower to inform him he had snow on the wings, which they did. He acknowledged it, then took the take off clearance.

This doesn't sound like an isolated incident.

[UUUWZDZX]

I saw an Aeroflot A320 taxi out at Oslo in heavy snow having heard him refuse de-icing. Following aircraft in the queue at the hold told the tower to inform him he had snow on the wings, which they did. He acknowledged it, then took the take off clearance.

jonseagull, can you recall date and time?


JCviggen, thanx for sharing! Do you remember actual time of takeoff?


Anyone who also remembers such instances with Aeroflot, please come forward and post info here. It all will be forwarded to numerous aviation authorities.

[9.G]

That clip is a pure crime no doubt bout it. We all know the standard ICAO rule of no one must operate in reckless manner endangering safety etc. Very clear violation of all possible rules and procedures. Reasons unknown. However it's obvious UUUWZDZX, is waging a war against AFL and it's functionaries. The question is why? You post names here and you speak russian and you use AFTN address of Main Air Traffic Flow Management Center (M.A.T.F.M.C.), a unit charged by the Federal Aviation Authority of Russia (FAAR). All this indicates that you're insider. Are you fighting in the name of safety or is it perhaps personal vendetta? I'm not really sure any more. If you're safety concerned do report it to the Russian CAA and demand an answer. Please spare me all this crap about corruption etc. After the crash in USRR no authority can afford to neglect such gross misconduct. Answers from the functionaries is a mitigation strategy though a dumb one, it seems to me. Being a whistle blower isn't enough to improve safety, do something.

p.s. Word of caution a official report on Russian CAA site requires credentials, as you're well aware of, I'm sure.

[M609]

Quote:

JCviggen, thanx for sharing! Do you remember actual time of takeoff?


Anyone who also remembers such instances with Aeroflot, please come forward and post info here. It all will be forwarded to numerous aviation authorities.

Since I don't see the wings I cannot prove the practice, but some of us approach controllers at Oslo have noticed (On our A-SMGCS display) that AFL do seem to bypass the deice on their way to the runway from time to time, when everyone else stops at the "bird bath".

[UUUWZDZX]

However it's obvious UUUWZDZX, is waging a war against AFL and it's functionaries. The question is why? You post names here and you speak russian and you use AFTN address of Main Air Traffic Flow Management Center (M.A.T.F.M.C.), a unit charged by the Federal Aviation Authority of Russia (FAAR). All this indicates that you're insider.

I'm not affiliated with MATFMC UUUWZDZX, took this nickname as it was was the first thing that came into my mind when registering on this forum.

Are you fighting in the name of safety or is it perhaps personal vendetta? I'm not really sure any more. If you're safety concerned do report it to the Russian CAA and demand an answer.

I first stumbled upon this video a few days ago, when searching for other videos on youtube. From the start it was apparent for me that violation of FCOM took place. I then sent a link to Aeroflot. They replied with that famous statement. On the day Aeroflot replied, an emergency bulletin was communicated to all aviation entities by russian CAA regarding ATR72 crash saying that gross misconduct took place: aircraft was not de-iced. This bulletin was sent in the morning, while I got reply from Aeroflot in the afternoon. The fact that even despite content of that bulletin and seriousness of matters highlighted, Aeroflot officials still replied that it was OK to takeoff like this (they could have changed their statement later, but never did), forced me to take initiative. Immediately I wrote to Airbus (still waiting for a reply). Once I have official position of Airbus (and even if they won't respond, it is still clear that procedures were not followed), I will then contact EASA, IATA and Russian CAA, may be other institutions too. As I mentioned before, I replied to Aeroflot's statement with a quotations of FCOM and SOP procedures that were not followed, but of course they never responded.

[JCviggen]

JCviggen, thanx for sharing! Do you remember actual time of takeoff?

Not exactly, but it was quite late 22:50 ish iirc. (sched 22:20)

I remember seeing 5-6 planes behind us in the queue and 2 or 3 in front but no de-icing rig (the others might not have needed it mind)
It's somewhat unusual to have much of a queue at SVO especially the times of day that my flights tend to be at probably that's why I remember.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Well, I have a tiny bit of experience in winter ops, and there is one thing that always amazes me when we have these discussions: Other pilots who says that deicing of aircraft is on some occasions worse than not deicing.
For all of you:

Please state how many aircraft have crashed because they deiced, and how many have crashed because they did not?
As far as Russia goes, over the years, there seem to have been a number of aircraft that for some unknown reason just crashed just after take off.

On the issue of powder snow and low temperatures (the video we are discussing in this thread has nothing to do with this phenomena), yes, certain snow textures (feather like) and very low temperatures will let the snow blow right off. In fact, even the slightest wind will prevent the snow for accumulating.
I'm happy to go without deicing as long as the snow blows off during taxi out, but the only way to confirm this is to taxi via the deice area. A quick inspection from the deice team confirming clean wings, and I'm happy to taxi for takeoff without any worries. This costs nothing and only takes a minute.
If there is anything on the wing, deice is my only option.

And no, this will not endanger my flight.

What these Aeroflot guys did was criminal, plain and simple!

[RA44471]

Soviet regulations with GREAT experience of fligts in "dry snow" conditions were transferred to Russian regulations.
Dry snow on upper wing surface is OK for take-off, but captain Must be sure there is no ice.
If previos approach was conducted out of icing coditions, OAT is well below 0C, re-fuelled fuel temp was below 0C there was NO chance to get ice on the wing.

My best regards to Sabenaboy.


Regardless:


Snowbank take-off is MAD
Today I' ve spoken with tech-cheif. He considers this take-off mad too. So did the guy from Labour Union Commitee.
I hope IT will leave my company.

[DX Wombat]

With the following definition in mind could someone please explain to me just what dry snow is?

snow
   [snoh]

noun
1.
Meteorology . a precipitation in the form of ice crystals, mainly of intricately branched, hexagonal form and often agglomerated into snowflakes, formed directly from the freezing of the water vapor in the air. Compare ice crystals, snow grains, snow pellets.

2.
these flakes as forming a layer on the ground or other surface.

3.
the fall of these flakes or a storm during which these flakes fall.

[UUUWZDZX]

It is irrelevant whatever type of snow was there. As per procedures there is no distinction between wet and dry snow. At least as per Boeing/Airbus procedures. Must be removed regardless and this is a correct methodology, because it is consistent and simple to remember for crews, rather then to define what type of snow you have, which will inevitably involve subjectivity and errors. Just look at our example - aeroflot officials claim it "was blown-off instantly" implying it was a dry snow, while it was WET (check METARs I supplied in similar thread in Tech Log) and was not blown off instantly at all, but in patches and only partially by the time of rotation.

If you are asking out of curiosity though, check meteorology handbooks for generally accepted definitions.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Wombat

I can't give you a definition, but you'll typically get dry, powder type snow in low temperatures (apx -10 C and below) and in dry conditions. It behaves in pretty much the same manner as when you blow on a dandelion.
It's the best explanation I can give.

[BobnSpike]

That is actually a pretty good explanation.

Speaking for myself: our (Boeing) manuals do specifically address dry snow/cold temps and specifically permit departure without being sprayed under these conditions provided the snow is dandelion seeds.

However, those same manuals also specifically prohibit takeoff with any snow on the wing regardless of whether it is actually adhering. Whether it is stuck fast or just lying there, we are REQUIRED, by whatever means, to ensure the critical surfaces are 100% clear of contaminants before initiating the takeoff.

I don't know about Aeroflot's or Airbus's manuals, but the takeoff in the video would have been a gross violation from my particular seat.