2 months left to new work hours guys... do this now...
Thanks for the pointer to that.
Mr David O’Brien, Director of Flight and Ground Operations for Ryanair.
No difference between factory worker driving home and pilot driving home. Really?
Factory worker has probably just been out of bed for 10hrs cf pilot who may have been up for 22hrs and crossed eight time zones.
Mr Andrew Haines, Chief Executive, Civil Aviation Authority.
Hey! I'm really worried about those pilots who don't sleep for 24hrs before a flight
Mr David O’Brien, Director of Flight and Ground Operations for Ryanair.
No difference between factory worker driving home and pilot driving home. Really?
Factory worker has probably just been out of bed for 10hrs cf pilot who may have been up for 22hrs and crossed eight time zones.
Mr Andrew Haines, Chief Executive, Civil Aviation Authority.
Hey! I'm really worried about those pilots who don't sleep for 24hrs before a flight
Last edited by Basil; 23rd Feb 2012 at 09:30. Reason: Remove error in my perception of evidence.
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What is it going to take before these guys get the picture? Its not about facts / the mass of science behind FTLs /NASA research etc...it is about profit. Unfortunatley those who seek to implement dangerous FTL policies will find they are losing people as the impending pilot shortage starts to bite.
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Dr Rob Hunter, Head of Safety, British Airline Pilots’ Association.
Missed an opportunity to make it clear that, by the time passengers and crew are disembarked, immigration cleared, baggage collected and customs cleared, the rest period may commence before leaving the airport and that transport to HOTAC is taking place within the rest period.
Missed an opportunity to make it clear that, by the time passengers and crew are disembarked, immigration cleared, baggage collected and customs cleared, the rest period may commence before leaving the airport and that transport to HOTAC is taking place within the rest period.
The other guy, representing UNITE also added that some hotels can be between 30-45 minutes, in some cases an hour away from the airport. So, I think the panel got the idea.
David O'Brien tried to draw a very poor comparison between a factory worker and a pilot, but I was rather pleased to hear him belittle his own comments when he said the only difference would be "the pilots car would probably be bigger". Ridiculous statement. I actually half agreed with O'Brien on other comments he made. Shame he made such a silly comment so early on. I'll put it down to nerves!
Boing7117,
Thank you for pointing that out.
I've now watched and listened carefully to that part of the evidence and agree with you.
I apologise to Dr Rob Hunter for my error and will remove that part of my post.
Thank you for pointing that out.
I've now watched and listened carefully to that part of the evidence and agree with you.
I apologise to Dr Rob Hunter for my error and will remove that part of my post.
I actually half agreed with O'Brien on other comments he made.
At least it didn't descend into a union vs airline vs CAA bunfight.
who is this guy?
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Calibrating Pilot...who is this guy?
First of all he apologises for being late to the meeting. Then he asks the question whether any of this entire debate has ever considered the flying task faced by calibration pilots.
The committee member seemed to be aluding to the fact that calibration pilots are the ones who make the multiple approaches into airfields and it is their data which is passed to airline pilots who just make the one approach. He painted the picture that calibration pilots make approaches all day long into a said airfield, constantly updating the commercial pilots in some technical "thumbs-up" way.
This individual got the completely wrong end of the stick and really took the discussion off into an unnecessary tangent.
I am not suggesting that calibration pilots don't have a difficult and demanding job, however, as correctly pointed out by the chap sat next to the UNITE fellow, calibration pilots fall under the category of aerial work rather than commercial aviation and therefore have not been considered in this discussion
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Lets be a little realistic
EASA FTL comes into UK
BA protected by scheme and BALPA
Virgin long haul a lot of augmentation outside current proposals / Balpa
Easyjet leaders in FRMS, yeah Pilots may do 5 earlies but science says thats better than whats allowed under CAP371. BALPA protection. Who in EZY thinks they will move to 7 earlies, NOT.
Thomson - probably Charter Airlines will benefit by adoption of EASA FTL, protected by strong Union, other TUI Airlines in Europe already running to Sub Part Q so Thomson will see a level playing field. How come other TUI Pilots can manage SBQ currently
Thomas Cook - similar to above Charter / Balpa
Monarch similar to above Charter / Balpa
Jet 2 similar to above Charter / Balpa
All above started to invest in FRMS already, doesnt come cheap. Profits before safety you said alosauras? (dinosaurus perhaps)
Flybe - BALPA might be a bun fight?
DHL - Science supporting consecutive nights and BALPA, sole night ops currently outside proposals
Anyone left??
Lastly, EASA FTL means that the UK has to sign up to it, but Airlines can keep their current schemes if they wish under derogation with a safety case.
EASA FTL comes into UK
BA protected by scheme and BALPA
Virgin long haul a lot of augmentation outside current proposals / Balpa
Easyjet leaders in FRMS, yeah Pilots may do 5 earlies but science says thats better than whats allowed under CAP371. BALPA protection. Who in EZY thinks they will move to 7 earlies, NOT.
Thomson - probably Charter Airlines will benefit by adoption of EASA FTL, protected by strong Union, other TUI Airlines in Europe already running to Sub Part Q so Thomson will see a level playing field. How come other TUI Pilots can manage SBQ currently
Thomas Cook - similar to above Charter / Balpa
Monarch similar to above Charter / Balpa
Jet 2 similar to above Charter / Balpa
All above started to invest in FRMS already, doesnt come cheap. Profits before safety you said alosauras? (dinosaurus perhaps)
Flybe - BALPA might be a bun fight?
DHL - Science supporting consecutive nights and BALPA, sole night ops currently outside proposals
Anyone left??
Lastly, EASA FTL means that the UK has to sign up to it, but Airlines can keep their current schemes if they wish under derogation with a safety case.
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Post by Mr Angry From Purley "Just to confirm also it's 2 months to respond to the latest scheme, then off to Parliment for approval and then 2 years to implement."
He has a point, but to clarify further: There is just over one week until the end of the comment period for the new flightdutytimes regulations. Thereafter it becomes the final draft law.
10,000 + signatures and counting.
He has a point, but to clarify further: There is just over one week until the end of the comment period for the new flightdutytimes regulations. Thereafter it becomes the final draft law.
10,000 + signatures and counting.
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Landing after 22 hrs awake
The MP in the green tie (it would have been nice to know their names at the start of the session) at 1hr 13 asked Andrew Haynes, the Chief Exec of the CAA, whether pilots could land having been awake for over 22 hrs either now or under the EASA proposals. I was amazed that Andrew Haynes said this would be an "exceptionally, exceptionally rare event" and only after being called from a long standby, going into discretion etc.
I should think it must happen many times a day with long-haul arrivals and is an inherent risk of 18-30 hr rest periods downroute. Take a standard 2-crew East Coast trip arriving in the US/Caribbean at about 1700 local/2200Z. Meal, sleep, wake up at at 0300 local/0800Z. Can't sleep during the rest of the day (why should you on your body-clock?), pick-up late afternoon for a night-flight home, landing back in the UK at 0700Z after 23hrs awake. Bog standard duty, all on schedule, no discretion involved.
The whole discussion seemed to be subconsciously based on a short-haul operation. The really scary thing about the EASA proposals is that they would extend this model to 2-crew West Coast operations, so you'd routinely be landing after 27 hrs awake.
I should think it must happen many times a day with long-haul arrivals and is an inherent risk of 18-30 hr rest periods downroute. Take a standard 2-crew East Coast trip arriving in the US/Caribbean at about 1700 local/2200Z. Meal, sleep, wake up at at 0300 local/0800Z. Can't sleep during the rest of the day (why should you on your body-clock?), pick-up late afternoon for a night-flight home, landing back in the UK at 0700Z after 23hrs awake. Bog standard duty, all on schedule, no discretion involved.
The whole discussion seemed to be subconsciously based on a short-haul operation. The really scary thing about the EASA proposals is that they would extend this model to 2-crew West Coast operations, so you'd routinely be landing after 27 hrs awake.
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I had a brief communication last year with one of the key scientists at NASA at the time -whose work on crew fatigue formed the basis of some of the new proposals. I asked him what he thought of EASA's new proposals at the time, in particular how the FAA would feel about potentially over-fatigued crews (from the EU) flying in US airspace and landing there having worked a duty day which exceeds FAA restrictions. My impression from what little he could or would tell me was that this question had not been considered - which I found very interesting as it seems to be a pretty fundemental one. I also met with EASA and was equally surprised that they have no perception of any negative pressure whatsoever on safety standards from some of the 'coercive influences' used by some airlines to encourage excessive use of crew discretion amongst many other things. Needless to say I feel that EASA are rushing this through without adequate,thorough consultation of the people who really know what the implications will be - the people that actually fly aeroplanes.
Last edited by AirResearcher; 11th Mar 2012 at 09:50.
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Calibration Pilots
Just to clarify, Julian Sturdy MP was indeed raising the question of Flight calibration in response to a letter sent from within his constituency.
As suggested by BALPA, a letter outlining concerns for the new FTL proposals was drawn up and I used examples from my current aviation role. For thse who have watched the meeting on Parliament TV, I'm afraid the chap who dismisses flight checking as not relevant.:- Last time I looked in my ops manual the flight calibration pilot is subject to CAP371.
At the moment at least I know that the very max I can do is 13 hours (And I feel the error rate in that discrectionary hour increases noticeably). I'm not looking forward to working longer than 13 hours in busy terminal areas, hand flying all my approaches down to 50ft gear up, flying 6-7 approaches an hour and 50% of the time against the flow (with a 40kt tailwind)!
So perhaps this particular MP was just doing his job and raising the concerns of his constituents!
GQ
As suggested by BALPA, a letter outlining concerns for the new FTL proposals was drawn up and I used examples from my current aviation role. For thse who have watched the meeting on Parliament TV, I'm afraid the chap who dismisses flight checking as not relevant.:- Last time I looked in my ops manual the flight calibration pilot is subject to CAP371.
At the moment at least I know that the very max I can do is 13 hours (And I feel the error rate in that discrectionary hour increases noticeably). I'm not looking forward to working longer than 13 hours in busy terminal areas, hand flying all my approaches down to 50ft gear up, flying 6-7 approaches an hour and 50% of the time against the flow (with a 40kt tailwind)!
So perhaps this particular MP was just doing his job and raising the concerns of his constituents!
GQ
We have situations right now where you can be on standby from 03.00 local until 21.00 local with the distinct possibility of being called out to fly a multiple sector nearly 12 hour night duty starting near the end of the standby period. Given this duty often goes into discretion and if you get up at a normal time say 06.30 you could be up for well over 24 hours before you land. We certainly hope it will not happen but I had a co-pilot recently who had this scenario occur on the flight before.
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Says something that we had to fight very hard indeed to get some restrictions into our CLAs, so that standby duties can not exceed 16 hours (was 24 hours before) and that the total of standby duty and following flight duty can not exceed 22 hours. However there is still a loophole that allows up to 31 hours in some very rare cases. Has never happened, but it will one day as long as that loophole exists.
The actual event I have described has standby and scheduled duty at 27 and a bit hours (2 crew on a 737 but only one out of standby) and one of the sectors had a go-around due to wind shear in the middle of the night with a twenty knot plus crosswind in mountainous terrain! What is the loophole allowing 31 hours?
