2 months left to new work hours guys... do this now...
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where nobody from the bigger one helps the smaller ones at all
LH never had interest in the other pilots corps, they are using the others to fulfill their own goals. How would you explain that all the LH subcontractors are paid a miserable lot and are not even allowed to wear the crane on their fin! This is an absolute pervert missuse towards your collegues. Of course, they are very afraid of them, because they could replace them all. And I promise you, they will, as long as LH pilots have better conditions.
And yes, I agree, Aeropers is exact the same miserable bunch of selfish guys. If you would look further, yes there are good examples, but not in German spoken aviation. Looking further is not their union's strength...
please wait
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European Flight Duty Time Campaign needs your support
Hello.
Some of you might be aware that EASA's new proposals for the becoming new European Flight Duty and Rest Times Regulation have been published on January 18th, 2012 (http://www.easa.eu.int/rulemaking/do...%202010-14.pdf) - with considerable delay after receiving more than 50.000 comments (most ever received by EASA) towards the old NPA as of December 2010.
These proposals will become Europe-wide regulations in 2013. What many do not know: this "law" will not follow the normal democratic avenue that most know from any other legislation, it will not be "adopted" by a majority vote of the European parliament. The reason is a "relict" from the early days of the European Community which is called the "comitology procedure" (see below).
Though the new proposal can be regarded as a "considerable improvement" to the original draft as of last year but it is far from being appropriate. In contrast to the new US regulations (except Cargo, - I know) they are still ignoring scientific research and incident and accident analysis about "fatigue" as a contributing factor.
Therefore some European Pilot Associations have launched a campaign and are collecting signatures of citizens who object these new proposals and support the idea that the new regulations should be based on science rather then commercial interest of the operators.
The campaign is supported by some really funny video spots placed on YouTube. My favorite is this one:
but there are 3 more others available in English, French and German.
English:
French: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05r_...f=mfu_in_order
German:
So please help distribute the message and get also your friends and significant others to sign the petition, available at
www.flightdutytimes.eu
The comitology procedure
The word “comitology” comes from the French word “comité”, or “committee” in English. The first committee to consider binding regulations for the European Economic Community already met in 1962. For its part, the Council of the EEC then determined that it could itself decide whether to issue so-called “implementing regulations” or transfer this task to the European Commission. Fundamentally, once such a regulation is passed and comes into force, it becomes legally binding in all applicable European countries. In 1987, these powers were transferred to the European Commission.
Since then, the Commission has been permitted to issue – in close cooperation with the Member States – binding regulations applicable across Europe. Doing so, it is supported by committees in which civil servants from all Member States are represented. This comitology procedure as currently practised in the EU is regarded by its critics as being undemocratic and lacking in transparency.
Neither the EU Council of Ministers nor the elected members of the European Parliament have any means of influence over this procedure. A regulation which is enacted in the context of a comitology procedure does not have to be submitted to the EU’s legislative bodies for their approval, even though such regulations can have major impacts both positive and negative on the everyday life of its citizens. Likewise, the forthcoming amendments to the Regulation on Flight Duty and Rest Periods are due to be agreed and passed in a comitology procedure.
However the committees which drafted and debated these regulations did not have any official representatives from the passengers on them, such as members of consumer associations or similar organisations.
Some of you might be aware that EASA's new proposals for the becoming new European Flight Duty and Rest Times Regulation have been published on January 18th, 2012 (http://www.easa.eu.int/rulemaking/do...%202010-14.pdf) - with considerable delay after receiving more than 50.000 comments (most ever received by EASA) towards the old NPA as of December 2010.
These proposals will become Europe-wide regulations in 2013. What many do not know: this "law" will not follow the normal democratic avenue that most know from any other legislation, it will not be "adopted" by a majority vote of the European parliament. The reason is a "relict" from the early days of the European Community which is called the "comitology procedure" (see below).
Though the new proposal can be regarded as a "considerable improvement" to the original draft as of last year but it is far from being appropriate. In contrast to the new US regulations (except Cargo, - I know) they are still ignoring scientific research and incident and accident analysis about "fatigue" as a contributing factor.
Therefore some European Pilot Associations have launched a campaign and are collecting signatures of citizens who object these new proposals and support the idea that the new regulations should be based on science rather then commercial interest of the operators.
The campaign is supported by some really funny video spots placed on YouTube. My favorite is this one:
but there are 3 more others available in English, French and German.
English:
French: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05r_...f=mfu_in_order
German:
So please help distribute the message and get also your friends and significant others to sign the petition, available at
www.flightdutytimes.eu
The comitology procedure
The word “comitology” comes from the French word “comité”, or “committee” in English. The first committee to consider binding regulations for the European Economic Community already met in 1962. For its part, the Council of the EEC then determined that it could itself decide whether to issue so-called “implementing regulations” or transfer this task to the European Commission. Fundamentally, once such a regulation is passed and comes into force, it becomes legally binding in all applicable European countries. In 1987, these powers were transferred to the European Commission.
Since then, the Commission has been permitted to issue – in close cooperation with the Member States – binding regulations applicable across Europe. Doing so, it is supported by committees in which civil servants from all Member States are represented. This comitology procedure as currently practised in the EU is regarded by its critics as being undemocratic and lacking in transparency.
Neither the EU Council of Ministers nor the elected members of the European Parliament have any means of influence over this procedure. A regulation which is enacted in the context of a comitology procedure does not have to be submitted to the EU’s legislative bodies for their approval, even though such regulations can have major impacts both positive and negative on the everyday life of its citizens. Likewise, the forthcoming amendments to the Regulation on Flight Duty and Rest Periods are due to be agreed and passed in a comitology procedure.
However the committees which drafted and debated these regulations did not have any official representatives from the passengers on them, such as members of consumer associations or similar organisations.
Last edited by TvB; 3rd Feb 2012 at 10:34.
Thanks for the explanation.
Shouldn't pilots be using FoI, or whatever each country has, to get the names of the Civil Servants sitting on the comitology procedure?
- One could always inform them about the science!...........and air their names a bit.
................and if you think comitology is bad, you should involve yourselves in a nasty little EU process where the UK is represented by an untrustworthy process known as "Ukrep". Basically, Ukrep is where the UK's position on lots of things is horsetraded - with zero application of any science - against other countries positions. It can be as daft as "we will support you on your cow/beef issue, if you support us on the tech spec for cars"
Shouldn't pilots be using FoI, or whatever each country has, to get the names of the Civil Servants sitting on the comitology procedure?
- One could always inform them about the science!...........and air their names a bit.
................and if you think comitology is bad, you should involve yourselves in a nasty little EU process where the UK is represented by an untrustworthy process known as "Ukrep". Basically, Ukrep is where the UK's position on lots of things is horsetraded - with zero application of any science - against other countries positions. It can be as daft as "we will support you on your cow/beef issue, if you support us on the tech spec for cars"
please wait
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Well doesn't surprise me at all. We have seen that very drastically when the first media reports popped up about the "mad cow disease"... Even very reputable British scientists and professors lost their chairs in the wake of it...
Nevertheless, this nonsense has to be stopped before t.s.h.t.f...
Nevertheless, this nonsense has to be stopped before t.s.h.t.f...
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Scotsman - not sure the comparison bewteen blood alcohol and fatigue levels are supported by the sleepy scientists or have i been told duff gen?
We have to remember the vast majority of Europe are already working these limits, in fact in the case of the night hours EASA FTL brings it right down to a more sensible and safe level.
We have to remember the vast majority of Europe are already working these limits, in fact in the case of the night hours EASA FTL brings it right down to a more sensible and safe level.
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Fatigue or poisoned?
TvB - would you agree that the recent incident where a German pilot who was made ill during an in flight fume event and was subsequently found to have jet engine oil in his blood may not be fatigued - but was suffering (like many, many others) from Aerotoxic syndrome?
Germania B737 Flight: First Officer Partially Incapacitated By Fumes
Pilot inflight collapse: Germany investigates cabin air poisons - Learmount
BTW Your fatigue videos are....... brilliant!
Germania B737 Flight: First Officer Partially Incapacitated By Fumes
Pilot inflight collapse: Germany investigates cabin air poisons - Learmount
BTW Your fatigue videos are....... brilliant!
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Danger is the one factor promoted in curbing the trajectory of this regulation. Totally valid.
Now, don't we also have the right to health ? I am not going to cover all the types of stresses inherent to this profession. What I believe is this area needs to be tackled as well, especially as our retirement ages (depending on countries) are called to be stretched even further. I strongly believe in that right which ranks second, immediately below the danger factor.
Now, don't we also have the right to health ? I am not going to cover all the types of stresses inherent to this profession. What I believe is this area needs to be tackled as well, especially as our retirement ages (depending on countries) are called to be stretched even further. I strongly believe in that right which ranks second, immediately below the danger factor.
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I don't know in detail about the new scheme. I have learnt about it in conversation with our FOI as to what we will be allowed. It is far better for us in GA, mainly because we are not stuck with a scheme designed for the convenience of airlines but can make variations backed by a safety case in line with our SMS.
Our FTLs will not change until we have applied for changes. Those changes won't be approved until we have made a safety case. So we will get more flexibility (which believe it or not our pilots want: we want to do the job if at all possible) with safety responsibility in-house but regulated. Seems like a good system for us.
Unions have an interest in restricting what pilots can do. This means airlines need more crew, more crew means more members and more dues. That site ray cosmic linked to was obvious propaganda, you only have to look at the link labelled "facts" to see that it goes to a page about accidents.
Our FTLs will not change until we have applied for changes. Those changes won't be approved until we have made a safety case. So we will get more flexibility (which believe it or not our pilots want: we want to do the job if at all possible) with safety responsibility in-house but regulated. Seems like a good system for us.
Unions have an interest in restricting what pilots can do. This means airlines need more crew, more crew means more members and more dues. That site ray cosmic linked to was obvious propaganda, you only have to look at the link labelled "facts" to see that it goes to a page about accidents.
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Unions have an interest in restricting what pilots can do. This means airlines need more crew, more crew means more members
thought more jobs was what we all wanted
Thread Starter
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EASA respond to pressure. The industry can excerpt more than pilots can as we are too busy trying to fly safely to be preoccupied with lobbying for safety, something we should be able to take for granted.
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pilot associations action
Gentlemen,
Is your home country pilot association planning action ?
It is time to urge our associations to let us know their plans.
Lets get out there
They ( EASA, ECA, etc, ) have to know that we do not accept changes which affect flight safety.
Fatigue kills.
Is your home country pilot association planning action ?
It is time to urge our associations to let us know their plans.
Lets get out there
They ( EASA, ECA, etc, ) have to know that we do not accept changes which affect flight safety.
Fatigue kills.
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justflyin
Flaymy actually makes some good points which you have choosen to ignore
Flexibility
Safety case
Changes we want
Regulated
Responsibility
For someone possibly at the bottom end of the airline cycle GA it indicates a positive, open understanding. EASA FTL will provide the framework, and active participation by both operator and crewmembers in the SMS will do the rest.
Flaymy actually makes some good points which you have choosen to ignore
Flexibility
Safety case
Changes we want
Regulated
Responsibility
For someone possibly at the bottom end of the airline cycle GA it indicates a positive, open understanding. EASA FTL will provide the framework, and active participation by both operator and crewmembers in the SMS will do the rest.
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jstflyin
A small GA company.
Nope (even ignoring your mischaracterisation of the law; it does not disregard safety at all, and for many countries it will mean tightening up of some FTL practices)
I suspect you might be working for the wrong people. I trust my CP, and I trust my Accountable Manager. That is why I work with them. The pilots work with ops whenever there is doubt, to come up with schedules that we can safely fly - and it is the pilots as much as ops who are frustrated by the illogical restrictions of CAP371. Funnily enough we want to fly, that is why we are in this game. We like our work.
Also we have been told exactly this by our FOI, that we will have to apply for any changes with a safety case. It will be decided by the FTL team at the Belgrano.
Is this nonsense or irrelevant to the discussion? Depends what you mean, and the sentence is ambiguous.
Nope. It not only makes sense, it is actually pretty obvious.
I am quite aware of why unions exist. I am also quite aware that the reasons they exist are part of history - which is why they are going extinct outside the public sector, where there is still profit in extortion because of the ability of governments to survive insane inefficiency. I am also aware of the damage militant unions do to an industry, including aviation. My union gives me some legal protection. If I ever need a lawyer then they will back me. That is it.
leonard sky nerd
What makes you think that? We want to fly for a living, and do so well which will, of course, help the image of the industry. The rest is up to someone else.
The market is as big as the demand. Artificial inflation is a poor long-term strategy. It is far better to expand jobs organically by working in a safe, efficient industry providing the product people want at the right price.
Who is we?
If something becomes EU law and makes it possible to have pilots work more/harder disregarding safety you can bet your 
that it will be imposed on you - soon!
that it will be imposed on you - soon!
I suspect you might be working for the wrong people. I trust my CP, and I trust my Accountable Manager. That is why I work with them. The pilots work with ops whenever there is doubt, to come up with schedules that we can safely fly - and it is the pilots as much as ops who are frustrated by the illogical restrictions of CAP371. Funnily enough we want to fly, that is why we are in this game. We like our work.
Also we have been told exactly this by our FOI, that we will have to apply for any changes with a safety case. It will be decided by the FTL team at the Belgrano.
At all possible is, as is safety, relative and a matter of definition.
This statement is absurd.
I am quite aware of why unions exist. I am also quite aware that the reasons they exist are part of history - which is why they are going extinct outside the public sector, where there is still profit in extortion because of the ability of governments to survive insane inefficiency. I am also aware of the damage militant unions do to an industry, including aviation. My union gives me some legal protection. If I ever need a lawyer then they will back me. That is it.
leonard sky nerd
thought more jobs was what we all wanted
The market is as big as the demand. Artificial inflation is a poor long-term strategy. It is far better to expand jobs organically by working in a safe, efficient industry providing the product people want at the right price.
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Whilst I agree that fatigue in aircraft is not a good thing, I strongly disagree with the perception that the new EASA FTLs allow longer duty times.
Have a look at the draft:
Draft
The flight time limits are:
ORO.FTL.210 Flight duty period (FDP)
Maximum daily FDP — Acclimatised crew members (1-10 sectors)
0600–1329 13:00 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00
1330–1359 12:45 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00
1400–1429 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00
1430–1459 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00
1500–1529 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00
1530–1559 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00
1600–1629 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
1630–1659 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
1700–0414 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0415–0429 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0430–0444 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0445–0459 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00
0500–0514 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00
0515–0529 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00
0530–0544 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00
0545–0559 12:45 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00
which measn roughly 1 hrs less duty than my actual FTLs, which are covered by actual JAR/EASA.
I also do not see any worsening for split duty, captains discretion or standby duty. If one can find it, be invited to show me.
Captains desrection is so old as aviation itself. Every discretion report goes to the NAA (national air authority), if above 2 hrs right away. If your airline produces too many reports, your NAA will intervene. Or at least it should. If it doesn't, it's not the fault of new EASA rules.
I still fail to see where this online petition refers to the new EASA rules. I don't know what they want. I find these videos very unrealistic, not funny and very biased. I don't believe that passenger will get a better view of aviation if we shock them with unrealistic stories.
All in all, Vereinigung Cockpit is shooting in its own foot with this campaign, since it fights for something they do not follow anyway (Lufthansa has better FTLs than EASA).
Dani
Have a look at the draft:
Draft
The flight time limits are:
ORO.FTL.210 Flight duty period (FDP)
Maximum daily FDP — Acclimatised crew members (1-10 sectors)
0600–1329 13:00 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00
1330–1359 12:45 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00
1400–1429 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00
1430–1459 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00
1500–1529 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00
1530–1559 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00
1600–1629 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
1630–1659 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
1700–0414 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0415–0429 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0430–0444 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0445–0459 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00
0500–0514 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00
0515–0529 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00
0530–0544 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00
0545–0559 12:45 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00
which measn roughly 1 hrs less duty than my actual FTLs, which are covered by actual JAR/EASA.
I also do not see any worsening for split duty, captains discretion or standby duty. If one can find it, be invited to show me.
Captains desrection is so old as aviation itself. Every discretion report goes to the NAA (national air authority), if above 2 hrs right away. If your airline produces too many reports, your NAA will intervene. Or at least it should. If it doesn't, it's not the fault of new EASA rules.
I still fail to see where this online petition refers to the new EASA rules. I don't know what they want. I find these videos very unrealistic, not funny and very biased. I don't believe that passenger will get a better view of aviation if we shock them with unrealistic stories.
All in all, Vereinigung Cockpit is shooting in its own foot with this campaign, since it fights for something they do not follow anyway (Lufthansa has better FTLs than EASA).
Dani
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And Lufthansa mainline is surprisingly just one of 20 pilot groups represented by VC. Many of which have quite outdated FTLs since it is not really easy to negotiate better ones.
Anyway, a splitduty where a 7 hour break on board of the plane is considered sufficient rest for an 18 hour day is not really my idea of good FTLs.
Anyway, a splitduty where a 7 hour break on board of the plane is considered sufficient rest for an 18 hour day is not really my idea of good FTLs.
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The market is as big as the demand. Artificial inflation is a poor long-term strategy. It is far better to expand jobs organically by working in a safe, efficient industry providing the product people want at the right price.
With FTLs regarded as some sort of efficiency target not as a limit, perhaps Flight Time Target would be a more appropriate title.
I would have thought that with more pilots, a company would be able to reduce the annual quota of duty hours allocated to each pilot and therefore reduce fatigue.
I suspect you might be working for the wrong people. I trust my CP, and I trust my Accountable Manager. That is why I work with them. The pilots work with ops whenever there is doubt, to come up with schedules that we can safely fly - and it is the pilots as much as ops who are frustrated by the illogical restrictions of CAP371. Funnily enough we want to fly, that is why we are in this game. We like our work.
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The market is as big as the demand. Artificial inflation is a poor long-term strategy. It is far better to expand jobs organically by working in a safe, efficient industry providing the product people want at the right price.
Or were you denying that LoCos are safe? Not what I would call part of any business model, in that safety is an underlying assumption and regulatory requirement. However even there I think you would struggle to justify your assertion, something I see you do not attempt.
Last edited by Flaymy; 21st Feb 2012 at 17:26.