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2 months left to new work hours guys... do this now...

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2 months left to new work hours guys... do this now...

Old 18th Jan 2012, 12:19
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2 months left to new work hours guys... do this now...

See this website, sign up and have your say while there is time. Laugh at the videos... or cry.

flightdutytimes.eu

Go to EASA's facebook homepage and post there.

Email EASA. Rulemaking Enquiry - EASA Webgate

Failure means we will all pay the price with longer work hours, increased fatigue and unsafer skies.

Last edited by beachbud; 18th Jan 2012 at 13:58. Reason: vague heading
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 17:37
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Angry

Beachbud
96.2 % of replies came from one European Country. What's happening elsewhere in Europe?
Just to confirm also it's 2 months to respond to the latest scheme, then off to Parliment for approval and then 2 years to implement.
Increased fatigue - perceived. What's better 3 nights then a 0700 day flight or 4 nights?
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 20:10
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I also fail to recognize an increase of duty hours. If I check the new draft of FTL, I see roughly 1 h less max duty in any duty start time bracket.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 20:12
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As far as i know its a website from the german union Vereinigung Cockpit. They had a TV ad running which prompted the public in germany to participate. Therefore the list on the german part of that website is quite long already for being up 2 days or so. But not enough signed by far, still needs a lot signed up.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 20:24
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As far as i know its a website from the german union Vereinigung Cockpit. They had a TV ad running which prompted the public in germany to participate. Therefore the list on the german part of that website is quite long already for being up 2 days or so. But not enough signed by far, still needs a lot signed up.
Too bad a related thread has been deleted for what ever reason.

I thought it's a pilots board.....

Or is it just for brits?
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 12:15
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uh, I see clearly now. VC again...

They tried to impress the public perception with a useless study about tired cockpit crews some months ago. In fact it was not a study but an opinion poll amongst pilots if they have "ever been tired in their lives".

I have to say VC does very bad politics. They suffer from a bad judgement of their own situation, since they have the best duty limitations in the world, at least the VC members in Lufthansa.

And I don't really feel much motivation to sign a petition whose wording is not there at all... - if I click on "facts" I don't get any facts at all. This site resembles dangerously to one of a religious cult.
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 17:16
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Try this one

You can also go here:
Participate! | Flight Duty Times
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Old 21st Jan 2012, 13:56
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That happend quiete often in the past. LH-VC members become rather a obstacle then a support. If it is not born in theire head it cannot be a good idea.

I always remember that old joke about a "Pilots Union meeting", at the end the question was: Do you mean every Wednesday ?!?!

Time to go with the time, maybe some of them dreaming from the old times? They are gone a while ago......
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 07:42
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We can all make fun of unions but really the joke is on us. Places like LH appear to have company agreements which are significantly better from a crew perspective than the regulations demand. The problem is in the smaller companies where the limits may be seen as targets in order to improve productivity.

If this was about common sense and very occasional long duties because of truly unforeseen circumstances the situation would be different. The reality is that some duties are constructed imaginatively, for example with unrealistic turnaround times, to make them fit within the limits. You know weeks in advance you are probably going to go into discretion on these runs. Of course it is all legal. You do not know before check in for sure. Only after months does the company get a slap on the wrist because time and again we go into discretion.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 13:29
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Angel Bashing the Union

Hi folks.

Just a view thoughts: some previous commenter's are right that within LH there are much stricter FDT limitations, due to the collective labour agreements between the LH employees and the management. Nevertheless these agreements are substantially based on the specific current German regulation, still in power. But these will become obsolete when the new EASA proposals become law in all Europe, which soon will be the case. The airlines will then argue with the same old wordings which we have seen on other occasions already (such as after the introduction of the EU-OPS): we have to do the same as so and so as otherwise we have an economical disadvantage compared to our European competitors.

Don't forget: the EASA proposals are only partially based on scientific research (as it is the case with the new FAA flight duty time regulations). It were the Unions that forced EASA to rework their first set of regulations published early last year.

It seems that what EASA is going to push into concrete now is more or less a wishlist of the airlines. And don't fool yourself: once this is regulation in Europe it will be the base for all agreements, even future collective labour agreements. So you would like to have flight duty times up to 16 hours by commanders discretion (now the max is 15 hours)? This given the fact that most dispatches already take into account that the Cpt. will use this "tool" in order to get the bird and pax home? The cited survey of VC has shown that in most cases the planning of some schedules is that tight that you may only fly it under commanders discretion.

Also I really don't like the idea that crews are forced to be awake for 24 hours and then land an airplane - as it would be (besides commanders discretion cases) the case with "split duty" schedulings.

Do we really need to lay out the ingredients for incidents and accidents to happen by a new - European - wide - regulation?

"Safety in aviation is the absence of accidents and incidents by preventive measures taken BEFORE something serious happens as a consequence of previously known deficiencies." I stick to this!
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 13:44
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You know weeks in advance you are probably going to go into discretion on these runs
Only after months does the company get a slap on the wrist because time and again we go into discretion.
So why do crew keep going into discretion?!! I just can't get my head around this! If you allow this practice to continue, it WILL continue! If you start parking jets down route it will quickly become a very expensive party for the company.

Only do discretion when there are really, on the day, "unforeseen circumstances".

Interesting, although 5 year old, article here Prevalence of fatigue among commercial pilots

From the same article:

Pilots who reported regularly flying into their ‘discretion’ hours had lower physical and psychological health, and overall fatigue scores, and poorer self-rated general health.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 13:53
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The new EASA FTL draft gives me about 1 h less flight duty a day (depending when it starts), so I see it as a good thing.

There are a lot of misconception around about captains discretion. They go to the national aviation authority, if it's above 2 h they have to be sent immediatly. Any airline that will use this tool too often will hear something from their supervising body. Unless you are in a banana republic...

Tim, you want to tell me that Lufthansa will change their FTLs into EASA standard as soon as they are in force? Do you really believe this? VC would call out industrial actions immediatly. Anyway, I don't see why I should fight for them, since they are top of the food chain and the most powerful pilots corps on the continent (apart from the cabin crew in BA...). If they want to fight, they should fight for us, not we for them.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 13:56
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Exclamation So why do crew keep going into discretion?!!

Good question Cpt. Prop! But I'm quite convinced that there is a lot of pressure within the companies to do so. There are only few commanders who have the strong shoulders to proceed as you outlined.

Why are many commanders flying their birds - as requested by the companies - more and more at the recommended max though the coffins corner become dangerously small? Do they just want to avoid the invitation for a coffee at their superiors. It is all about saving fuel, but it is always safe? Well AF 447 has demonstrated what may happen if you have some more factors associated with this. And BTW: while talking "fatigue" and so - how long was the F/O on the cpt. seat in the cockpit of AF 447 when the mess started? Ever heard of "sleep inertia"? - This was at least a contributing factor in another - fatigue related accident: Air India Express at Mangalore...
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 14:03
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banana republic

Hi Dani.

We are in a banana republic in Germany (thats why the shortening is BRD ) !
The LBA has taken no steps - what so ever - against the more than 1.000 commanders discretion decisions of Air Berlin. They have even tolerated illegal flights to be conducted (duty time of commander of more than 17 hrs). Those who reported this irregularity to the LBA principal were sacked, as the LBA has nothing better to do then to inform the airline that someone (with name of course) has reported it. This is Germany - not Switzerland.

The Authorities - such as EASA too - unfortunately see their duty more in supporting the airlines and help them "economically" to survive than to enhance safety at an early stage.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 14:10
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If they want to fight, they should fight for us, not we for them.

Hey Dani!

It is about solidarity. Don't just lean back and let others do the job. Everbody is needed here and time is running out!

And yes, I think VC is also fighting for you and everybody else with a European ATPL. The aim of the campaign - as I see it - is to bring this subject to a wider attention in the population as they don't have a clue of what is going on in some back rooms in Cologne (EASA) and in Brussels (EU).

You can read and understand German so just read this and you will understand where the real danger lies here with good old EU commission and EASA:

Das Komitologieverfahren | Flugdienstzeiten
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 17:09
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You obviously do not understand a lot about EU legislation. Those are always minimal standards. No legal body is prevented of applying higher standards.

If VC really would fight for me, they would work on standards they are sharing with their company. This is not the case. The only thing they want is fighting for their own privileges. Why for example do Lufthansa pilots allow other VC members to have worse conditions then their own? Why are they forbidding other pilot groups (LH subcontractors, LH Italia aso) to share their privileges? This is a selfish bunch.

I say it again: The new EASA FTL regulations are an improvement for me and for most other pilots.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 17:45
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@ Dani

Dear Dani.

Having studied law I think I understand quite well what is going on here.
Working in the EU field for some decades I also believe that I have a very solid and good understanding of how the EU regulations are implemented into national legislation.

Your further bashing comments into the direction of VC just show that you have no clue of what you are talking. I also believe that you are represented by good old "aeropers", if you happen to be a member.

But It is not my task, nor duty to convince you of what a union does or does not. I'm not a member of VC, never been, and very likely will also never become.

I may somehow agree on some of your allegations in regards to previous boards that were majority formed by LH pilots. But this is long time history...
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 20:47
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Give me a break, show me one practical case where EU wouldn't allow higher standards than their legislation. This has never happen and will never happen. Surely not in the EU we know. Law study is no replacement for logical thinking nor close observation of actual politics.

The same will happen to Aeropers pilots (union of the former Swissair pilots in Swiss): They will never adapt EASA, because they have better FTLs.

Not even VC is implying that the new FTLs are binding for them. So you shouldn't neighter. If they would really fear, they would put this on top of their petition. But on the contrary, they don't even write what you are signing for! What an utter violation of basic democtratic principles...

I guess you are Tim van Beveren, the well known aviation journalist, who didn't even know the difference between a B777 and a A330 in the biggest Swiss newspaper and after that in a spotter forum. Have you taken over some PR mandate for VC in the mean time?
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 21:52
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Why for example do Lufthansa pilots allow other VC members to have worse conditions then their own? Why are they forbidding other pilot groups (LH subcontractors, LH Italia aso) to share their privileges?
You do not seem to have a shimmer of a clue about how VC works. Quite understandably from someone from switzerland where there is at least one union per company and nobody from the bigger one helps the smaller ones at all (which lead to a complete erosion of T&Cs in Belair for example), which is actually quite different from the VC where the main money comes from LH guys and the main part of the work is done for other companies. And yes, each pilot group has to represent themselves and has to negotiate their own CLAs in germany, LH can't help me at all (apart from paying our lawyers) in my non-LH company, simply because it would be illegal.

And of course the current legal framework is always the basis during every negotiation about T&C's, which will make it much harder if not impossible to hold current CLA's. And especially in germany many parts of the CLA's are not defined independent of the current legislation, which means that those CLA's will change with changing rules.
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Old 23rd Jan 2012, 00:17
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Dream on... Dani! Be happy about the one hour less for you on your joystick, - so you have won another hour that you can do dogfighting with your buddies. Hey: - Enjoy!
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