Air France jet clips smaller plane at New York's JFK airport
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A VERY similar accident happened yesterday between a B747 and an ERJ....let's hear the passionate people from this forum share their passion for the wingtip clearance of the 747, lest the double standards be brutally exposed...
On the 747 you can at least see your wing-tips, unlike some jets. Hate to be critical, but, even if you are on the line and the 'target' is over the equipment line, it is still no excuse to wack somebody. Got to keep the head outside and looking. Eva F/O in need of a serious flogging, but it'll be the Captains fault for not having eyes in the side of his head. Seen it all before, nothing changes, just the rego.
Though pictures does of course not tell a whole story, they may sometimes provide very accurate suggestions as to what took place. From the pictures you're about to see here, I think it's safe to deduce that a) the EVA was on the centre-line and that b) the AA had not cleared the taxiway demarcation line, at the time of impact.
Whether a torn off arm belonging to a now-former FO should be used to flog the PIC to death can be debated, but there does seem to be evidence to suggest they collectively failed to maintain separation.
I know nothing of how LAX operates, but it would be interesting to learn what radio communications between ground/ramp and the two aircraft took place.
Whether a torn off arm belonging to a now-former FO should be used to flog the PIC to death can be debated, but there does seem to be evidence to suggest they collectively failed to maintain separation.
I know nothing of how LAX operates, but it would be interesting to learn what radio communications between ground/ramp and the two aircraft took place.
By George:
"On the 747 you can at least see your wingtips".
I never flew the 747 but I spent a lot of time on the DC-10. On the DC10-10 it was impossible to see the wingtips. On the DC-10-30 it was just, and only just, possible to see the wingtips. Even then, I would defy even the most experienced pilot to be able to judge within 10-15 feet or so exactly where their wingtip was on a DC-10 (nowadays I have enough trouble with a PA-28).
Does anyone else out there remember the inflatable rubber satellite terminal at LAX? It was as tight as a badger's ar*e. I often had kittens taxiing in there for the only guidance was to hope that the nosewheel was exactly on the centreline and that everything else was in exactly the correct place.
"Target over the equipment line"
I agree totally with you on this point. Taxiing a widebody is hard enough but the equipment line is one of your major safeguards. Anything over that line, stop and put the park brake on.
Finally, do we know for certain that the ERJ was not actually pushed back in front of the 747?
No, I didn't think so.
I've had that happen to me at Kennedy more times than I care to remember.
"On the 747 you can at least see your wingtips".
I never flew the 747 but I spent a lot of time on the DC-10. On the DC10-10 it was impossible to see the wingtips. On the DC-10-30 it was just, and only just, possible to see the wingtips. Even then, I would defy even the most experienced pilot to be able to judge within 10-15 feet or so exactly where their wingtip was on a DC-10 (nowadays I have enough trouble with a PA-28).
Does anyone else out there remember the inflatable rubber satellite terminal at LAX? It was as tight as a badger's ar*e. I often had kittens taxiing in there for the only guidance was to hope that the nosewheel was exactly on the centreline and that everything else was in exactly the correct place.
"Target over the equipment line"
I agree totally with you on this point. Taxiing a widebody is hard enough but the equipment line is one of your major safeguards. Anything over that line, stop and put the park brake on.
Finally, do we know for certain that the ERJ was not actually pushed back in front of the 747?
No, I didn't think so.
I've had that happen to me at Kennedy more times than I care to remember.
Last edited by JW411; 31st May 2012 at 13:36.
Interesting the comments against the Eva 747. Not many comments about the obvious cause of the bingle being the ERJ parked/left way over the line! Pilots not noticing they'd stopped short, groundcrew not noticing, and so on and on. Judging by the other ERJ, this looks like a "normal" port for them. And the poor Eva crew gets sledged for not noticing/looking over their shoulder. They're probably maxxed out just trying to work out where they were going and understanding the locals on the R/T.
ORD not LAX, thanks. Thanks for clarification as well.
My understanding is the 747 was taxing for take-off, the ERJ was pulling onto stand. Presumably the ERJ held short, rear end hanging over the line, for whatever reason. I don't think there's much rocket science to this one, but again - it would be nice to know if ramp/ground control issued a "hold" instruction or a warning to either or both aircraft. Since the prang did take place, I would assume they hadn't. Which still leaves the PIC up smelly waters without propulsion, for failure to keep a look-out. One would hope, though, such an occurrence (like that in JFK) would lead to a re-think of procedures and/or equipment.
My understanding is the 747 was taxing for take-off, the ERJ was pulling onto stand. Presumably the ERJ held short, rear end hanging over the line, for whatever reason. I don't think there's much rocket science to this one, but again - it would be nice to know if ramp/ground control issued a "hold" instruction or a warning to either or both aircraft. Since the prang did take place, I would assume they hadn't. Which still leaves the PIC up smelly waters without propulsion, for failure to keep a look-out. One would hope, though, such an occurrence (like that in JFK) would lead to a re-think of procedures and/or equipment.
Last edited by SMT Member; 31st May 2012 at 16:57.
Person Of Interest
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Not to nit-pick here, but I think the crew of the 747 was aware of the RJ. Unless I'm mistaken, Eva was taxiing well left of the taxiway centerline...Just the same old lesson learned once again for the umpteenth time...
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The photos and the proposed scenario ( the ERJ pulling IN stand G20 in front of an opposite taxiing 747) tell other stories to me :
1) either it was a brief stop short of the G20 final stop just before coming in : and surely the ERJ crew knew there was going to be a problem with the 747 about to cross behind. Did they warn Ground control they were not " in" ?
2) or the ERJ was the since a long time, : Had they warned Ground ATC ? and surely seen the 3 photos on previous page, the ERJ was not merely sticking out a bit , but half a length . So the 747 crew should have been able to notice this.
3) The 747 was warned or saw the ERJ out and was trying to "overtake" the obstacle and failed. ( not sure what is the correct taxi centre line on last photo ).
So the ATC exchange tape would be interesting to hear . It isnormally very soon available on liveatc .. anyone has heard about it yet ?
1) either it was a brief stop short of the G20 final stop just before coming in : and surely the ERJ crew knew there was going to be a problem with the 747 about to cross behind. Did they warn Ground control they were not " in" ?
2) or the ERJ was the since a long time, : Had they warned Ground ATC ? and surely seen the 3 photos on previous page, the ERJ was not merely sticking out a bit , but half a length . So the 747 crew should have been able to notice this.
3) The 747 was warned or saw the ERJ out and was trying to "overtake" the obstacle and failed. ( not sure what is the correct taxi centre line on last photo ).
So the ATC exchange tape would be interesting to hear . It isnormally very soon available on liveatc .. anyone has heard about it yet ?
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It isnormally very soon available on liveatc .. anyone has heard about it yet ?
Originally Posted by Dave, at LiveATC
We don't have Chicago Ground coverage at the moment, so we don't have it.
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Narrow escape for tiny commuter plane as 747 'jumbo' jet clips its tail on the runway and flips it TEN feet to the right | Mail Online
"Narrow escape" claims the daily mail. Bet you didn't know EVA was
"vietnamese owned" now did you ?
"it was like David hit Goliath" says CBS spokesman. Uh, shouldn't it be Goliath hits David?
"Narrow escape" claims the daily mail. Bet you didn't know EVA was
"vietnamese owned" now did you ?
"it was like David hit Goliath" says CBS spokesman. Uh, shouldn't it be Goliath hits David?
Last edited by armchairpilot94116; 1st Jun 2012 at 08:31.
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Since this has now happened twice under practically identical circumstances, perhaps the airport honchos will reassess the stupid manner in which RJs are crammed into terminal space meant for real airplanes. Check out the chaos at Atlanta on Googlymaps. I've seen better parking order at redneck barbecues.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but at many major airports in the USA ramp control is not done by ATC. It's a seperate entity altogether. Furthermore, from my experience, there's not much (if any) co-ordination between ramp control and ATC. After landing an a/c will contact ATC Ground until approaching their ramp area when they will switch to the Ramp frequency. If for any reason ramp asks them to hold short of the gate and don't co-ordinate with ATC you have the recipe for this type of incident. That aside, the Eva F/O should have been keeping a look out and the ultimate fault lies there me thinks.
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There are no doubts that ORD is a very busy airport, sometimes the ATC doesn't use a standard phraseology and the risk of a misunderstanding is very high... but when you're taxiing and you've an obstacle on your way you have to stop even if you have been instructed to move. If an airplane is stuck in the middle of a taxiway and you hit him you are responsible, the ERJ was still occupying the taxiway with its rear part, the crew must be able to assure the correct separation by himself. Awaiting for an official report, according to me there are no excuses!
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It's daylight. Sunny. A plane has half it's fuselage extending over the obstruction line. It's right in front of you.
And guys want to blame the guy in the ERJ?
And give the 747 crew a pass on running into the ERJ?
Or blame ground control?
It's right in front of you. It's daylight. It's sunny. It's obvious that the ERJ is not clear of the taxiway. You are responsible for your aircraft. Repeat ad nauseum.
And guys want to blame the guy in the ERJ?
And give the 747 crew a pass on running into the ERJ?
Or blame ground control?
It's right in front of you. It's daylight. It's sunny. It's obvious that the ERJ is not clear of the taxiway. You are responsible for your aircraft. Repeat ad nauseum.
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And guys want to blame the guy in the ERJ?
And give the 747 crew a pass on running into the ERJ?
Or blame ground control?
And give the 747 crew a pass on running into the ERJ?
Or blame ground control?
If you think this could never happen to you , then you can always skip this thread.
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747 cargo plane clips commuter jet while taxiing in Chicago
747 cargo plane clips commuter jet while taxiing in Chicago
By Todd Sperry, CNN
May 30, 2012 -- Updated 2156 GMT (0556 HKT)
A Boeing 747 clipped the tail of a commuter plane carrying passengers yesterday at O'Hare airport in Chicago Tuesday.
A Boeing 747's wing clips the tail of a much smaller Embraer-140
The smaller plane carried 18 passengers; the larger one was a cargo jet
No one was injured
(CNN) -- Passengers on an American Eagle flight arriving at Chicago's O'Hare airport got an unexpected jolt Wednesday when the right wing of a Boeing 747 cargo plane taxiing for departure clipped the tail of the commuter plane.
None of the 18 passengers and three crew members was injured, an American Eagle spokeswoman said.
American Eagle Flight 4265, an Embraer-140, had just arrived from Springfield, Missouri, and was taxiing to the gate when the incident occurred around 1 p.m. The 747 cargo plane involved in the collision, operated by EVA Airways, was heading to Anchorage, Alaska.
All passengers got off the smaller plane while officials inspected the damage to both, according to American Eagle spokeswoman Mary Frances Fagan.
O'Hare airport is the sixth busiest passenger airport in the world, according to the latest data available from Airport Council International, a trade organization representing airports.
The Chicago Tribune reported last year that federal officials launched an investigation focused on O'Hare airport after numerous mistakes made by air traffic controllers. The paper said the majority of errors involved failing to keep proper distance between planes on the ground and in the air.
By Todd Sperry, CNN
May 30, 2012 -- Updated 2156 GMT (0556 HKT)
A Boeing 747 clipped the tail of a commuter plane carrying passengers yesterday at O'Hare airport in Chicago Tuesday.
A Boeing 747's wing clips the tail of a much smaller Embraer-140
The smaller plane carried 18 passengers; the larger one was a cargo jet
No one was injured
(CNN) -- Passengers on an American Eagle flight arriving at Chicago's O'Hare airport got an unexpected jolt Wednesday when the right wing of a Boeing 747 cargo plane taxiing for departure clipped the tail of the commuter plane.
None of the 18 passengers and three crew members was injured, an American Eagle spokeswoman said.
American Eagle Flight 4265, an Embraer-140, had just arrived from Springfield, Missouri, and was taxiing to the gate when the incident occurred around 1 p.m. The 747 cargo plane involved in the collision, operated by EVA Airways, was heading to Anchorage, Alaska.
All passengers got off the smaller plane while officials inspected the damage to both, according to American Eagle spokeswoman Mary Frances Fagan.
O'Hare airport is the sixth busiest passenger airport in the world, according to the latest data available from Airport Council International, a trade organization representing airports.
The Chicago Tribune reported last year that federal officials launched an investigation focused on O'Hare airport after numerous mistakes made by air traffic controllers. The paper said the majority of errors involved failing to keep proper distance between planes on the ground and in the air.
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Originally Posted by desitter
Since this has now happened twice under practically identical circumstances, perhaps the airport honchos will reassess the stupid manner in which RJs are crammed into terminal space meant for real airplanes. Check out the chaos at Atlanta on Googlymaps. I've seen better parking order at redneck barbecues.