Fakers, fakers everywhere!
And what the 
are " major " legacy carriers accepting candidates from dubious outfits where they certainly know that hours can easily be fudged? Korean, CA, Air China, even EK and EY
are " major " legacy carriers accepting candidates from dubious outfits where they certainly know that hours can easily be fudged? Korean, CA, Air China, even EK and EY
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We are talking about the fraudulent pilots from the Indian sub-continent, which is all true, but what about the doctors, teachers that have all done the same to get their qualifications, and then used them to get immigrant status into our part of the world??
We should also mention the many europeans that went to the US and bought shared time on various twins and both logged the hours!!
The US pilot that I came across officially that had presented a fraudulent check ride form to a crewing company so that he could fly an airplane that he wasn't qualified for in the 3rd world.
There are many others in different lines of work that should be bought to task.
We should also mention the many europeans that went to the US and bought shared time on various twins and both logged the hours!!
The US pilot that I came across officially that had presented a fraudulent check ride form to a crewing company so that he could fly an airplane that he wasn't qualified for in the 3rd world.
There are many others in different lines of work that should be bought to task.
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Being a private pilot I extremely rarely drop into these threads, but let me point out a few things...
Logbook forgery is hardly going to be limited to India or whatever. You don't need a PhD to work out that any flight logged right here in the UK, between non-ATC airfields, can be forged. OK, the smaller ones supposedly keep visitor books, but for how long? The long road to an ATPL can easily take years of hour building, and if you have to stuff your logbook with hundreds of hours, the "option" is staring you in the face. And is forging 100 hours somehow morally "better" than forging 1000 hours?
And is illegal logbook stuffing much worse than renting a C150 in Arizona and flying up and down between two airports, day and night, on a 100-hour rental block at £35/hour (a price current not that many years ago)? It must be, because the C150 time is so relevant to flying an A330
Then move onto various "easy routes" which have existed at various times. Even in ultra gold plated JAA-land, there have been "ways" to convert one set of non-JAA ICAO papers into JAA ones. One super route closed only last year. Ireland used to convert various papers into JAA ones, until it became too well known. A lot of these routes hang on the concept that almost every country will give you a local CPL/IR if you have another ICAO CPL/IR and have a relationship with a commercial operator on the country's registry, and the relationship can be just doing some ad hoc stuff, working as a flight instructor, etc. Many pilots avoided the 14 ATPL exams by doing these routes. I am sure most of "us" would have jumped at the chance of avoiding the 14-exam JAA garbage-swatting process whose relevance to aviation, as I happen to be more than familiar with, is somewhere below 10%. I've just got 96% on the 1960s RAF radar set stuff... but is it relevant? None of this is illegal but "pot and kettle" come to mind
And then look at the whole JAA CPL/IR / ATPL process. For all the gold plating, most of it is utter garbage. The 14 exams are, as I say, more than 90% nonsense which has zero (zilch) relevance to any practical form of aviation. I bet that if you dragged the entire BA Captain population, in their Col Gaddafi ceremonial dress, into an exam room, they would fail the exams comprehensively. Well, not IFR Comms
European pilots have no basis for regarding themselves superior for having passed through this classroom sausage machine, whose syllabus is almost wholly an ego trip of long-retired ex RAF navigators.
And then you have the flight training, banging so many hours in a clapped out Seminole or whatever, flying NDB holds to "perfection". Another syllabus writer ego trip whose relevance to aviation ended with, approximately, the Comet
And then you have the hordes of starry eyed airline pilot wannabees travelling the well worn tracks to places like Hungary in search of a CV test where the AME will not keep a record of anybody who failed - a priceless facility because you are allowed only one fail in your lifetime of each of the four or so CV tests. How many 10000hr BA Captains got their initial CV test down there? The whole JAA medical system where you are allowed Demonstrated Ability only on a Renewal is a complete in-your-face perverted farce which flies in the face of any sort of natural justice, never mind recruiting on the basis of demonstrable ability to do the job. Even the CAA, in its famous CV study (doubtless prompted by the haemorrhage of Medical Dept income to certain "outlying" JAA members), has admitted that the existing CV tests are basically garbage and only the W-H Lantern test means anything. Most of the most experienced jet pilots have significant hearing problems by the time they retire. It doesn't affect their ability to do the job.
Obviously there is a difference between outright illegality, and everything short of that, but does it suprise anybody that when somebody sees the almost complete farce which pilot training and medicals are in this gold-plated land, they decide to help themselves a little? And where exactly do you draw the line when somebody has found a "little hole" in the system somewhere?
(FAA CPL/IR, JAA PPL, FAA & JAA Class 1 medicals, 1300hrs)
Logbook forgery is hardly going to be limited to India or whatever. You don't need a PhD to work out that any flight logged right here in the UK, between non-ATC airfields, can be forged. OK, the smaller ones supposedly keep visitor books, but for how long? The long road to an ATPL can easily take years of hour building, and if you have to stuff your logbook with hundreds of hours, the "option" is staring you in the face. And is forging 100 hours somehow morally "better" than forging 1000 hours?
And is illegal logbook stuffing much worse than renting a C150 in Arizona and flying up and down between two airports, day and night, on a 100-hour rental block at £35/hour (a price current not that many years ago)? It must be, because the C150 time is so relevant to flying an A330
Then move onto various "easy routes" which have existed at various times. Even in ultra gold plated JAA-land, there have been "ways" to convert one set of non-JAA ICAO papers into JAA ones. One super route closed only last year. Ireland used to convert various papers into JAA ones, until it became too well known. A lot of these routes hang on the concept that almost every country will give you a local CPL/IR if you have another ICAO CPL/IR and have a relationship with a commercial operator on the country's registry, and the relationship can be just doing some ad hoc stuff, working as a flight instructor, etc. Many pilots avoided the 14 ATPL exams by doing these routes. I am sure most of "us" would have jumped at the chance of avoiding the 14-exam JAA garbage-swatting process whose relevance to aviation, as I happen to be more than familiar with, is somewhere below 10%. I've just got 96% on the 1960s RAF radar set stuff... but is it relevant? None of this is illegal but "pot and kettle" come to mind
And then look at the whole JAA CPL/IR / ATPL process. For all the gold plating, most of it is utter garbage. The 14 exams are, as I say, more than 90% nonsense which has zero (zilch) relevance to any practical form of aviation. I bet that if you dragged the entire BA Captain population, in their Col Gaddafi ceremonial dress, into an exam room, they would fail the exams comprehensively. Well, not IFR Comms
European pilots have no basis for regarding themselves superior for having passed through this classroom sausage machine, whose syllabus is almost wholly an ego trip of long-retired ex RAF navigators.And then you have the flight training, banging so many hours in a clapped out Seminole or whatever, flying NDB holds to "perfection". Another syllabus writer ego trip whose relevance to aviation ended with, approximately, the Comet
And then you have the hordes of starry eyed airline pilot wannabees travelling the well worn tracks to places like Hungary in search of a CV test where the AME will not keep a record of anybody who failed - a priceless facility because you are allowed only one fail in your lifetime of each of the four or so CV tests. How many 10000hr BA Captains got their initial CV test down there? The whole JAA medical system where you are allowed Demonstrated Ability only on a Renewal is a complete in-your-face perverted farce which flies in the face of any sort of natural justice, never mind recruiting on the basis of demonstrable ability to do the job. Even the CAA, in its famous CV study (doubtless prompted by the haemorrhage of Medical Dept income to certain "outlying" JAA members), has admitted that the existing CV tests are basically garbage and only the W-H Lantern test means anything. Most of the most experienced jet pilots have significant hearing problems by the time they retire. It doesn't affect their ability to do the job.
Obviously there is a difference between outright illegality, and everything short of that, but does it suprise anybody that when somebody sees the almost complete farce which pilot training and medicals are in this gold-plated land, they decide to help themselves a little? And where exactly do you draw the line when somebody has found a "little hole" in the system somewhere?
(FAA CPL/IR, JAA PPL, FAA & JAA Class 1 medicals, 1300hrs)
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Well well IO540...... (I have a lot of genuine IO540 time).
A lot of what you said is true but your completely over the top rant does spoil it somewhat.. "BA Capts in their Col Gaddafi uniforms".....WTF.??? you come across as a very bitter & twisted individual who I see does NOT hold a JAA CPL/ATPL but an FAA one....!!
As I hold ATPL's from many countries (Including Australia, USA, UK, etc etc) I can appreciate some of your rant but I can absolutely assure you that FAA licences do not in any shape or form compare with other "first" world countries.
So on the basis you haven't sat or you have failed to pass a JAA licence exam your rant does not hold water and those who are eulogising you are presumably just as ignorant.... maybe.?
Anyway off on my US Airways flight now so no hard feelings.
Might be an idea to sit down, calm down & have a nice cup of tea and reappraise your post.?
A lot of what you said is true but your completely over the top rant does spoil it somewhat.. "BA Capts in their Col Gaddafi uniforms".....WTF.??? you come across as a very bitter & twisted individual who I see does NOT hold a JAA CPL/ATPL but an FAA one....!!
As I hold ATPL's from many countries (Including Australia, USA, UK, etc etc) I can appreciate some of your rant but I can absolutely assure you that FAA licences do not in any shape or form compare with other "first" world countries.
So on the basis you haven't sat or you have failed to pass a JAA licence exam your rant does not hold water and those who are eulogising you are presumably just as ignorant.... maybe.?
Anyway off on my US Airways flight now so no hard feelings.
Might be an idea to sit down, calm down & have a nice cup of tea and reappraise your post.?
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It was an attempt at being funny, toro
I do think you have given the game away with
which is nonsense. The difference between an FAA PPL and a JAA PPL is ... the FAA one is a lot more thorough. The difference between an FAA CPL and a JAA CPL is a load of accurate VFR dead reckoning in the JAA one (perhaps useful in an A330 with all the tubes iced up but no, hang on, you need to know the TAS for DR to work, so what is it useful for?) and some fun flying (chandelles, lazy eights, etc) in the FAA one. The difference between an FAA IR and a JAA IR is that the FAA one is usually a damn lot higher checkride workload, with most of the checkride being partial panel / timed turns, etc. but the JAA one has, hey, accurately flown NDB holds. The biggest difference is the 14 JAA exams which are almost wholly irrelevant to flying.
My main point was that the JAA commercial pilot training system is mostly a facade, which nobody questions because most ATPL cadets are broke and desperate to get a job ASAP and are not going to rock the boat, while loads of commercial pilots living and working in Europe have used various "handy" routes to get their papers, which is legal whereas logbook forgery is illegal.
I do not support logbook forgery one bit (it is not actually unknown in GA, either, with some "celebrated" cases) but it is kind of hard to argue it morally when the "JAA moral high ground" is nonexistent.
I do think you have given the game away with
I can absolutely assure you that FAA licences do not in any shape or form compare with other "first" world countries.
My main point was that the JAA commercial pilot training system is mostly a facade, which nobody questions because most ATPL cadets are broke and desperate to get a job ASAP and are not going to rock the boat, while loads of commercial pilots living and working in Europe have used various "handy" routes to get their papers, which is legal whereas logbook forgery is illegal.
I do not support logbook forgery one bit (it is not actually unknown in GA, either, with some "celebrated" cases) but it is kind of hard to argue it morally when the "JAA moral high ground" is nonexistent.
Last edited by IO540; 10th Jun 2011 at 21:09.
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Quote:
And what the are " major " legacy carriers accepting candidates from dubious outfits where they certainly know that hours can easily be fudged? Korean, CA, Air China, even EK and EY
'nuff said
And what the are " major " legacy carriers accepting candidates from dubious outfits where they certainly know that hours can easily be fudged? Korean, CA, Air China, even EK and EY
'nuff said
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IO540 and Humour
What a bitter and twisted rant and, even if it was supposed to be funny which it was not it demonstrates a great deal of ignorance. And FWIW I had to revert to DR on two separate occasions whilst flying the Trident, once under rather hostile conditions (but we wont go into that here!) and the other whilst enjoying difficult technical problems. We were not travelling at 120 kts either, so the outcome had to be fairly accurate in fact when in the hostile case it had to be absolutely spot on and it was (UK ATPL).
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still waiting for flight.... so will respond.
if you read my response I very largely agreed with your post, although you do come across as rather frustrated/bitter...?
anyway as I have passed FAA & CAA ATPL exams albeit some 20 years ago there was no comparison. e.g. I studied the answers for the FAA exam in one day & took the main exam in less than one hour..!!!
I have lots of buddies here in the US who are AA Capts & I am not denegrating them or any other nationality of competency or ability.
But for you to accuse eg BA Capts with 10000 hrs going off to Hungary to obtain a CV is patently ridiculous.
feel free to pm me & I will talk to the director of flight ops so you can pop in for interview tell him of your allegations because I am sure he would bin any pilot with dodgy credentials, & then possibly you might obtain one of those " gaddafi uniforms"...!!
good luck with the Lycoming.
if you read my response I very largely agreed with your post, although you do come across as rather frustrated/bitter...?
anyway as I have passed FAA & CAA ATPL exams albeit some 20 years ago there was no comparison. e.g. I studied the answers for the FAA exam in one day & took the main exam in less than one hour..!!!
I have lots of buddies here in the US who are AA Capts & I am not denegrating them or any other nationality of competency or ability.
But for you to accuse eg BA Capts with 10000 hrs going off to Hungary to obtain a CV is patently ridiculous.
feel free to pm me & I will talk to the director of flight ops so you can pop in for interview tell him of your allegations because I am sure he would bin any pilot with dodgy credentials, & then possibly you might obtain one of those " gaddafi uniforms"...!!
good luck with the Lycoming.
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as I have passed FAA & CAA ATPL exams albeit some 20 years ago there was no comparison. e.g. I studied the answers for the FAA exam in one day & took the main exam in less than one hour..!!!
That doesn't mean it is easy. It just means you already knew the material.
You can't do that with the JAA CPL/IR exams which are mostly irrelevant garbage. In those, any amount of experience will get you about 50% max and the rest has to be swatted up from the question bank.
Also, I gather from old-timers, the Euro exams were a bit better 20 years ago. Not a lot better, but JAA gets the prize for introducing the biggest load of garbage. And in those days there were easier routes to an IR e.g. the 700hr route.
By CV I mean the initial colour vision test. You have to get a pass just once, anywhere in JAA-land, and it is good for life. The problem is that if you fail (in that particular type of CV test) you are (in theory
) barred from re-taking that test for the rest of your life. For example I failed the Isihara but passed the Lantern test (a very common thing). But had I failed the Lantern test, I would have been stuffed - unless it was done by a doctor who just let me walk out of the office so I could try again elsewhere... you can pass most things with practice but not in this perverse procedure, unless you can get hold of the test unit beforehand and practice with it.A pity Hum's beautiful pic of the king having no clothes has been deleted
''That doesn't mean it is easy. It just means you already knew the material.'''
Is that because he learned it from studying the JAA syllabus?
The answers to FAA questions can be learned from the study books prior to sitting in front of the computer for a couple of hours. You needn't understand the answers - just which one to click from memory when that question comes up. I too took the FAA exams after having done the UK ATPL and found them very easy. I'm not saying the UK syllabus was particularly relevant, but it does give you a much better knowlegde base. And quite a few licencing agencies around the world agree - FAA ATPLs often require a lot of exams to be taken for conversion.
Is that because he learned it from studying the JAA syllabus?
The answers to FAA questions can be learned from the study books prior to sitting in front of the computer for a couple of hours. You needn't understand the answers - just which one to click from memory when that question comes up. I too took the FAA exams after having done the UK ATPL and found them very easy. I'm not saying the UK syllabus was particularly relevant, but it does give you a much better knowlegde base. And quite a few licencing agencies around the world agree - FAA ATPLs often require a lot of exams to be taken for conversion.
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I'm not saying the UK syllabus was particularly relevant, but it does give you a much better knowlegde base
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I flew with a Malaysian captain who took the British style ATPL exams over 30 years ago and I was shocked at the type of exhaustive syllabus he had to undergo. When I asked if any of those stuff was of any relevance, he replied very relevant if you were flying in the 50's and 60's; not much use if you are a modern day airline pilot flying modern aircrafts. However he cautioned that it is an ATPL, air transport pilot license, a license for airline transport pilots NOT NECESSARILY only air carriers. He said that there are air transport pilots working in some remote areas of the world with outdated equipments where the knowledge garnered from the ATPL syllabus will prove most helpful. So, modern airline pilots, don't be close minded and think only of your big shiny jets. There are still many old aircrafts hauling freight and people in remote corners where the ATPL pilot really use those stuff learnt. It is still AIR TRANSPORT!
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he replied very relevant if you were flying in the 50's and 60's
The 1950s were 60 years ago.
The 1960s were 50 years ago.
He said that there are air transport pilots working in some remote areas of the world with outdated equipments
99.9% of new JAA trained pilots are heading for the nearest 18-30 Club 737/Airbus going to Lanzarote, or possibly a bizjet career. Some will end up instructing...
You better hope the Daily Mail doesn't read this stuff