Landing NORDO at KDCA
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It just shows the poor safety culture in US airlines.
Its not a matter of reading regs old boy but on assessing the risks.
Its not a matter of reading regs old boy but on assessing the risks.
Old boy.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without wishing to encourage SM, whilst I know that landing at an uncontrolled airport in daytime is ok (yes, and even amazingly finding our way to the apron/gate!!!), do FARs have any restrictions on IFR/night traffic?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: retirementland
Age: 79
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, I guess you (con-pilot) are one of the group of people who confuse flying hours (getting away with it) and type ratings as a substitute for risk assesment and mindfulness.
So prevalent in the US.
It like US pilots all wish they were flying air mail in DH4s .
BOAC. The night time aspect is particularly concerning.
So prevalent in the US. It like US pilots all wish they were flying air mail in DH4s .BOAC. The night time aspect is particularly concerning.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I seem to recall a couple of cases where pilots have struggled to even take off on the correct runway or land at the correct airfield."
There are incompetents in every endeavour, doesn't mean everybody needs "help taxiing" or controllers to tell them where to go and how to fly. Large airplanes land at uncontrolled airports all over the world, day and night--including the U. S.--every day.
There are incompetents in every endeavour, doesn't mean everybody needs "help taxiing" or controllers to tell them where to go and how to fly. Large airplanes land at uncontrolled airports all over the world, day and night--including the U. S.--every day.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, I guess you (con-pilot) are one of the group of people who confuse flying hours (getting away with it) and type ratings as a substitute for risk assesment and mindfulness. So prevalent in the US. It like US pilots all wish they were flying air mail in DH4s .
BOAC. The night time aspect is particularly concerning.
BOAC. The night time aspect is particularly concerning.
It is quit obvious you are not a professional pilot and the only knowledge you have of professional flying is what you see on TV and read in the newspapers.
Now as for this little condescending statement.\
"I seem to recall a couple of cases where pilots have struggled to even take off on the correct runway or land at the correct airfield."
People like you is the reason myself and many other real pilots do not visit this forum that much.
Too many so called, non aviation experts that don't have a clue what they are talking about and resort to using insulting language and made up crap.
Oh, along with being a retired pilot, I'm also an NTSB Aircraft Accident Investigator.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SM, it's really not a matter of hours or ratings, it's simply one of having some concept of how aircraft are operated. Even a moderately experienced private pilot understands the principle of landing at an uncontrolled airport and can do the "risk assessment," as you call it.
What you're doing is a bit like my criticizing a ship's captain for "docking dangerously," or whatever, when I haven't the faintest idea how docking is done.
And to criticize the "poor safety culture" of U. S. airlines beggars belief. (Particularly from somebody from the country whose premier airline captain, at the time, singlehandedly caused the worst airline disaster in history.)
What you're doing is a bit like my criticizing a ship's captain for "docking dangerously," or whatever, when I haven't the faintest idea how docking is done.
And to criticize the "poor safety culture" of U. S. airlines beggars belief. (Particularly from somebody from the country whose premier airline captain, at the time, singlehandedly caused the worst airline disaster in history.)
Last edited by stepwilk; 26th Mar 2011 at 19:37.
SM
I recently landed at night at an uncontrolled airport, located in uncontrolled airspace at Palau. With two airliners in the pattern! Was that dangerous?
Everyday, around the world, airliners land without ATC, is that dangerous? Is the oil industry's helicopter ops in the Gulf of Mexico dangerous? Yes, it is about risk management, it is also about running an airline and serving passengers safely. The US system has a demonstrably safe system, as safe as Europe's. Perhaps, safer. No US carrier would have an engine failure on take-off and cross the Atlantic (BA); have been criticized publicly for poor safety culture (AF, with several recent hull losses, including crashing an A320 with passengers on-board flying an airshow); had three pilots fail at understanding aircraft systems (TUI at AMS). Then again, how's the oil industry doing at safety analysis?
You keep posting here with no demonstrated knowledge of aviation. Would you like to inform us of your experience in aviation, particularly in risk analysis in airline operations?
Before the slagging begins, BA was well within their operating certificate and the FARs in operating KLAX to EGLL with three. It was not, perhaps, the most public relations oriented decision.
I recently landed at night at an uncontrolled airport, located in uncontrolled airspace at Palau. With two airliners in the pattern! Was that dangerous?
Everyday, around the world, airliners land without ATC, is that dangerous? Is the oil industry's helicopter ops in the Gulf of Mexico dangerous? Yes, it is about risk management, it is also about running an airline and serving passengers safely. The US system has a demonstrably safe system, as safe as Europe's. Perhaps, safer. No US carrier would have an engine failure on take-off and cross the Atlantic (BA); have been criticized publicly for poor safety culture (AF, with several recent hull losses, including crashing an A320 with passengers on-board flying an airshow); had three pilots fail at understanding aircraft systems (TUI at AMS). Then again, how's the oil industry doing at safety analysis?
You keep posting here with no demonstrated knowledge of aviation. Would you like to inform us of your experience in aviation, particularly in risk analysis in airline operations?
Before the slagging begins, BA was well within their operating certificate and the FARs in operating KLAX to EGLL with three. It was not, perhaps, the most public relations oriented decision.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Shell Management...thanks for the LAUGHS>
But, as a US Pilot, HOW DARE YOU!
Let us review...I personally have been cleared for takeoff, in beautiful weather, while there was a FUEL TRUCK stopped right in the middle of the runway. I asked ATC to verify that we were cleared for takeoff and they got angry with me..things like: clean the wax out of your ears, you are cleared for takeoff.
I then said: DO YOU SEE THE FUEL TRUCK ON THE RUNWAY? Takeoff clearance was then cancelled by tower.
I was better off that day without ATC. Perhaps that night, American and United were better off too.
There is risk in every operation. One of my brother pilots was killed while cleared to land at KLAX because ATC forgot they had cleared another plane into position and hold at an intersection of the runway.
Quite frankly, I would not have diverted to Dulles because of this. I would look at my copilot and say: I'll bet ATC fell asleep...they only have one guy on duty now. You see, I was based at DCA for 10 years plus.
Shell Management, you would have to understand that DCA has a noise curfew and there aer only a few exceptions and at that time at night...NOTHING IS HAPPENING. AND IF there was a vehicle on the runway, they should be monitoring ATC and have a clearance to operate on the runway.
Granted, I might do some extra clever things like switch to ground freq and give a shout out there too. I might even flash my landing lights. I would be extra watchful, but having been cleared for takeoff right into a fuel truck, I've learned that lesson years ago (by the way, the airport in question was usually a poster child for FOG)
By the way, wasn't it a euorpean pilot who tookoff at tenerife and hit a pan am????
I'm with you con-pilot.
Shell Management...the truth about flying is this...the captain, PIC whatever you like to call it is the final authority as to flying the aircraft. If he wanted to be totally fancy he could have declared an emergency and proceeded under the emergency authority of the pilot in command.
but they didn't need to.
AS to randy babbit (famous for being half of babbit and costello), for him not having heard of things like this happening, he is lying. I've heard about things like this since I started flying 35 years ago. He is trying to save his ASS because he could have ordered two guys on duty at all towers at all times along time ago.
But, as a US Pilot, HOW DARE YOU!
Let us review...I personally have been cleared for takeoff, in beautiful weather, while there was a FUEL TRUCK stopped right in the middle of the runway. I asked ATC to verify that we were cleared for takeoff and they got angry with me..things like: clean the wax out of your ears, you are cleared for takeoff.
I then said: DO YOU SEE THE FUEL TRUCK ON THE RUNWAY? Takeoff clearance was then cancelled by tower.
I was better off that day without ATC. Perhaps that night, American and United were better off too.
There is risk in every operation. One of my brother pilots was killed while cleared to land at KLAX because ATC forgot they had cleared another plane into position and hold at an intersection of the runway.
Quite frankly, I would not have diverted to Dulles because of this. I would look at my copilot and say: I'll bet ATC fell asleep...they only have one guy on duty now. You see, I was based at DCA for 10 years plus.
Shell Management, you would have to understand that DCA has a noise curfew and there aer only a few exceptions and at that time at night...NOTHING IS HAPPENING. AND IF there was a vehicle on the runway, they should be monitoring ATC and have a clearance to operate on the runway.
Granted, I might do some extra clever things like switch to ground freq and give a shout out there too. I might even flash my landing lights. I would be extra watchful, but having been cleared for takeoff right into a fuel truck, I've learned that lesson years ago (by the way, the airport in question was usually a poster child for FOG)
By the way, wasn't it a euorpean pilot who tookoff at tenerife and hit a pan am????
I'm with you con-pilot.
Shell Management...the truth about flying is this...the captain, PIC whatever you like to call it is the final authority as to flying the aircraft. If he wanted to be totally fancy he could have declared an emergency and proceeded under the emergency authority of the pilot in command.
but they didn't need to.
AS to randy babbit (famous for being half of babbit and costello), for him not having heard of things like this happening, he is lying. I've heard about things like this since I started flying 35 years ago. He is trying to save his ASS because he could have ordered two guys on duty at all towers at all times along time ago.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there has been a complaint about the title of this thread. when I first started it, the information was not clear. NORDO was as good a term as any, THEN.
So, if you would like to change the thread to SLEEPY TIME CONTROLLER @ DCA...FINE..
otherwise, you guys knew what it was all about and that's the name of that tune.
So, if you would like to change the thread to SLEEPY TIME CONTROLLER @ DCA...FINE..
otherwise, you guys knew what it was all about and that's the name of that tune.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But there is a difference between landing at a controlled airport without any 'control' and landing at an uncontrolled airport.
For a start there are procedures that are followed at an uncontrolled airport to ensure people know what other people are doing.
What procedures were in use at the controlled - but temporarily uncontrolled - airport to ensure the same?
To blithely say that we do not need ATC to land somewhere shows a distinct lack of lateral thought and vision about this particular situation. Even for a 21,000 hour wonder.
For a start there are procedures that are followed at an uncontrolled airport to ensure people know what other people are doing.
What procedures were in use at the controlled - but temporarily uncontrolled - airport to ensure the same?
To blithely say that we do not need ATC to land somewhere shows a distinct lack of lateral thought and vision about this particular situation. Even for a 21,000 hour wonder.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But there is a difference between landing at a controlled airport without any 'control' and landing at an uncontrolled airport.
For a start there are procedures that are followed at an uncontrolled airport to ensure people know what other people are doing.
What procedures were in use at the controlled - but temporarily uncontrolled - airport to ensure the same?
To blithely say that we do not need ATC to land somewhere shows a distinct lack of lateral thought and vision about this particular situation. Even for a 21,000 hour wonder.
For a start there are procedures that are followed at an uncontrolled airport to ensure people know what other people are doing.
What procedures were in use at the controlled - but temporarily uncontrolled - airport to ensure the same?
To blithely say that we do not need ATC to land somewhere shows a distinct lack of lateral thought and vision about this particular situation. Even for a 21,000 hour wonder.
No, we do not need ATC pemission to land everywhere. Surprised you don't know that or that you are unaware of that. Of course if you are not an experienced pilot, you wouldn't would you.
At least being a 21,000 hour pilot, I do know what I am talking about, you obviously do not.
No, we do not need ATC permission to land everywhere. Surprised you don't know that or that you are unaware of that. Of course if you are not an experienced pilot, you wouldn't would you.
At least being a 21,000 hour pilot, I do know what I am talking about, you obviously do not.
For someone who just joined last year and only have 290 posts, you're quite the expert. So I've given my background to lend credit to my views on this subject, why don't you share yours?
I'll not hold my breath.
LSM
Not to doubt your background, but there is no difference in how one would operate at an uncontrolled airport versus a "temporarily" uncontrolled airport. Tower freq becomes a CTAF freq. During the PATCO strike, LaGuardia was uncontrolled at night and that is exactly how we operated. It was still in a TCA, so ATC had to clear us for a visual approach or an IAP, then it wax up to us to go over to tower and make announcements per AIM. We even managed to find the MAT on our very own! Amazing, but then I learned at an uncontrolled airport. I have flown in IMC without a controller and lived to tell the tale, as do many other pilots and passengers.
In the final analysis, controllers coordinate the routing and flight levels of all known traffic, so as we dont hit each other. They no more control planes than they controlled the terrorists on 9/11.
BOAC. No FAR restrictions on night or VFR.
GF
Not to doubt your background, but there is no difference in how one would operate at an uncontrolled airport versus a "temporarily" uncontrolled airport. Tower freq becomes a CTAF freq. During the PATCO strike, LaGuardia was uncontrolled at night and that is exactly how we operated. It was still in a TCA, so ATC had to clear us for a visual approach or an IAP, then it wax up to us to go over to tower and make announcements per AIM. We even managed to find the MAT on our very own! Amazing, but then I learned at an uncontrolled airport. I have flown in IMC without a controller and lived to tell the tale, as do many other pilots and passengers.
In the final analysis, controllers coordinate the routing and flight levels of all known traffic, so as we dont hit each other. They no more control planes than they controlled the terrorists on 9/11.
BOAC. No FAR restrictions on night or VFR.
GF
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Con,
Are you too swept up in your own self importance to realise that there is a difference between landing at an uncontrolled airport and landing at a controlled airport that has, for whatever reason, become uncontrolled?!
What relevance has my post count got to this subject? What difference does my join date make? It's not the same as the date I started flying so utterly irrelevant again.
I could, if I chose, proudly display my flying experience, both military and civil, for you all to see but again it's irrelevant and you wouldn't know if it's accurate or a blatant lie. Besides, I don't feel the need to do so anyway. So what's your point?
Did my reference to controlled and UNcontrolled airports not make that clear to you? Is it only experienced pilots that fly into uncontrolled airports? No, my very first hour was flown at an uncontrolled airport. So shock horror a sub 21,000 hour pilot understands how uncontrolled airports operate. Golly!
Enjoy your scotch.
Are you too swept up in your own self importance to realise that there is a difference between landing at an uncontrolled airport and landing at a controlled airport that has, for whatever reason, become uncontrolled?!
What relevance has my post count got to this subject? What difference does my join date make? It's not the same as the date I started flying so utterly irrelevant again.
I could, if I chose, proudly display my flying experience, both military and civil, for you all to see but again it's irrelevant and you wouldn't know if it's accurate or a blatant lie. Besides, I don't feel the need to do so anyway. So what's your point?
No, we do not need ATC permission to land everywhere. Surprised you don't know that or that you are unaware of that. Of course if you are not an experienced pilot, you wouldn't would you.
Enjoy your scotch.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GF, my point, which I failed to deliver, is that not everybody may be aware of that if they don't regularly operate to uncontrolled fields. The turds could have hit the turbines spectacularly in this situation.
Edit, many uncontrolled airports have specific procedures and routes that must be complied with. What are the published procedures at KDCA for uncontrolled operations?!
Edit, many uncontrolled airports have specific procedures and routes that must be complied with. What are the published procedures at KDCA for uncontrolled operations?!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK boys and girls...DCA is a controlled airport as long as it is a controlled airport...and when does it become uncontrolled? The moment ATC fails to operate. ATC failed to operate at the TOWER level, wise heads took over and landed using uncontrolled airport operations.
When aTC started to operate again, it again was controlled.
Sadly, ATC in the public eyes means one thing, but in reality we all know that the only priority ATC has is to seperate instrument traffic. Everything else is a lower level of priority.
no one would be taking off from DCA with the tower closed unless they received a Radar Release...indeed no one would be taking off because of the noise curfew.
Approach control properly seperated IFR traffic inbound to the airport. It was quite reasonable to land using uncontrolled airport ops. No one else was flying into the airport without IFR seperation.
sheesh.
When aTC started to operate again, it again was controlled.
Sadly, ATC in the public eyes means one thing, but in reality we all know that the only priority ATC has is to seperate instrument traffic. Everything else is a lower level of priority.
no one would be taking off from DCA with the tower closed unless they received a Radar Release...indeed no one would be taking off because of the noise curfew.
Approach control properly seperated IFR traffic inbound to the airport. It was quite reasonable to land using uncontrolled airport ops. No one else was flying into the airport without IFR seperation.
sheesh.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you too swept up in your own self importance to realise that there is a difference between landing at an uncontrolled airport and landing at a controlled airport that has, for whatever reason, become uncontrolled?!
As for the self importance bit, you started off with insults, not me. I don't consider myself important enough to insult people I have no knowledge of and do not know.
I could, if I chose, proudly display my flying experience, both military and civil, for you all to see but again it's irrelevant and you wouldn't know if it's accurate or a blatant lie. Besides, I don't feel the need to do so anyway. So what's your point?
Call it common courtesy.
Did my reference to controlled and UNcontrolled airports not make that clear to you? Is it only experienced pilots that fly into uncontrolled airports? No, my very first hour was flown at an uncontrolled airport. So shock horror a sub 21,000 hour pilot understands how uncontrolled airports operate. Golly!
Again, I, as many other experienced pilots here have stated that there was no danger involved landing at DCA as is under discussion. If you have a problem with that, so be it.
But believe it or not, you are not the know all, end all of aviation safety.
Course neither am I, but I know that.
Enjoy your scotch
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread has deteriorated into uselessness, between the FlightSim players, SLFs and once-upon-a-pilots who resort to rhetoric to distort points.
I don't trust anybody who doesn't post their certificates and experience, particularly those who condescend to say, "I -could- tell you all about my time as the ace of the base, but I'm too busy to bother."
What this site really could use is a filter to separate the wheat from the goats, if you know what I mean. Like a database of all license numbers and holders, including all the phony Indian ones. But it's too late for that.
I don't trust anybody who doesn't post their certificates and experience, particularly those who condescend to say, "I -could- tell you all about my time as the ace of the base, but I'm too busy to bother."
What this site really could use is a filter to separate the wheat from the goats, if you know what I mean. Like a database of all license numbers and holders, including all the phony Indian ones. But it's too late for that.
One salient fact in this operation--KDCA is located in Class B airspace and not just any Class B airspace, the DCA Flight Restricted Zone. No traffic except specially cleared airliners and few GA that require very specific controls, including armed guards (all this is public info), so the chances of any "pop-up" traffic or uncontrolled traffic are nearly ZERO! Any planes approaching the FRZ will be intercepted and followed 24/7. There would have been far greater mid-air or ground threat to the airliners had this event occurred at, say, Memphis or Minneapolis at night. So, the only conceivable threat to these airliners might be ground traffic, which is pretty unlikely as these two flights were the only operating. So, the safety implications are pretty small. Legally, the FAA might have a case about the pilots landing w/o a clearance, but considering the circumstances, that ain't happenin'
GF
GF