Crash-Cork Airport
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done to the AAIU
These guys are under pressure to bash out a report ASAP. But instead of releasing a poorly researched, half-arsed affair they are taking their time to get it right. Well done. When it comes out it will be interesting reading.
As for the poor family of Mr Cantle, do they really want to do this? They will have to prove that he was, in effect, blameless. And let's assume he was, I think that might be rather hard to prove. Instead, I think they will leave the court with his reputation trashed. But I do wish them a satisfactory outcome.
As for the poor family of Mr Cantle, do they really want to do this? They will have to prove that he was, in effect, blameless. And let's assume he was, I think that might be rather hard to prove. Instead, I think they will leave the court with his reputation trashed. But I do wish them a satisfactory outcome.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They will have to prove that he was, in effect, blameless. And let's assume he was, I think that might be rather hard to prove.
1. Required flight-deck crewmember.
2. CRM
3. Second-in-command.
4. The concept of weather minimums and the regulations against violating them in commercial operations.
You get by those, he gets off as a passenger.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Leeds
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As difficult it is for the family i cannot really see where they are going with this, its effectively the same as someone running some red lights then becoming injured in an accident and wanting compensation
Unless anything comes of the putting a new captain with a fresh FO I doubt they will see much if anything, then comes a counter sue i feel..
Unless anything comes of the putting a new captain with a fresh FO I doubt they will see much if anything, then comes a counter sue i feel..
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Livesinafield:
Folks in a highly emotional state combined with almost no technical knowledge of a complex operation are great fodder for greedy lawyers.
Unless anything comes of the putting a new captain with a fresh FO I doubt they will see much if anything, then comes a counter sue i feel..
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aterpster has it I think.
They want to get at someone because nothing appears to be happening while the investigation is on going.
BCN is carrying on
MANX2 is continuing and expanding although they do seem to be using a British AOC holder more these days.
And the owners and people that empolyed thier son have legged it.
And all they can see is a manky rotting metro sitting in IOM.
The fact is that BCN has a manky fleet of old TP's which arn't worth much and are more than likely leased in through another company to protect the assets . Any sign that they will have to pay anything and they will just go out of buisness. The same directors/owners will start up again a few days later and nothing will have changed.
Personally I think the report is going to become a Tenerife like case study and is going to be used for years to come for CRM courses which ain't going to be pleasant for the family, as I don't expect the outcome of the report to be even slightly neutral about the crew.
The fall out with oversight etc is going to be the main area of interest I think although I feel they might use EASA as an escape "Now that everything is EASA everything has changed"
But as we all know most of our familys don't really have a clue about the job or what legal responsabilitys we take on every time we operate an aircraft. They don't know that our jobs are defined by an act of parliment through the ANO. They don't get that you work for a company but your license also means that you have a duty to refuse to do certain things. Its not the case that if the company tells you to do something it is then there problem if its illegal.
Its all very sad and I do feel for the family. I really do hope someone who does know what they are talking about legally and aviation wise gets hold of them and puts them straight. This case will end in tears there is no two ways about it win or loose.
They want to get at someone because nothing appears to be happening while the investigation is on going.
BCN is carrying on
MANX2 is continuing and expanding although they do seem to be using a British AOC holder more these days.
And the owners and people that empolyed thier son have legged it.
And all they can see is a manky rotting metro sitting in IOM.
The fact is that BCN has a manky fleet of old TP's which arn't worth much and are more than likely leased in through another company to protect the assets . Any sign that they will have to pay anything and they will just go out of buisness. The same directors/owners will start up again a few days later and nothing will have changed.
Personally I think the report is going to become a Tenerife like case study and is going to be used for years to come for CRM courses which ain't going to be pleasant for the family, as I don't expect the outcome of the report to be even slightly neutral about the crew.
The fall out with oversight etc is going to be the main area of interest I think although I feel they might use EASA as an escape "Now that everything is EASA everything has changed"
But as we all know most of our familys don't really have a clue about the job or what legal responsabilitys we take on every time we operate an aircraft. They don't know that our jobs are defined by an act of parliment through the ANO. They don't get that you work for a company but your license also means that you have a duty to refuse to do certain things. Its not the case that if the company tells you to do something it is then there problem if its illegal.
Its all very sad and I do feel for the family. I really do hope someone who does know what they are talking about legally and aviation wise gets hold of them and puts them straight. This case will end in tears there is no two ways about it win or loose.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Immediately after the crash, the family of the co-pilot thought that he was employed by Manx2. They were upset that the 'airline' hadn't been in touch to offer support. The lawyer for the passengers made much of the lack of support from Manx2 for a passenger that had to be repatriated and described Manx2 as the carrier. Yet Manx2 has escaped any blame or being a party to the action. Only the other day a passenger of Manx2 described them to me as the airline that always gets in, whatever the weather. Of course it is a different aircraft operator to the one at Cork but the common factor is the ticket seller, Manx2. Of course I'm not suggesting that any other Manx2 operator has made an illegal approach (inserted by my lawyer).
Quote from Mr. Healy-Pratt at the time of the accident.
Mr. Healy-Pratt made the following statement previously to IOM Today, "They promised support and when asked for support, they promptly backed away and said it wasn't their problem." He also sent us this response:
"The short point is an old one, if something walks, talks and looks like a duck, then it usually is a duck."
"Manx 2 identified the route.
Manx2 leased in an operator and crew to fly the route.
Manx2 started an operations base at Belfast for the route.
Manx2 marketed the route, as a Manx2 route.
Manx2 gave the route a Manx2 flight code (NM).
Manx2 had its name on the nose of the plane.
Manx2 'welcome the passengers on board this Manx2 flight'
Manx2 made profit from the route.
Manx2's ticket terms and conditions are not clear."
"Our view is that in any Court in the US, UK, EU, or Ireland, Manx2 would be held jointly responsible with Flightline BCN."
"We are interested to know what due diligence Manx2 did in using Flightline - to what extent did they know about the October 2001 fatal crash with a Metroliner in Spain and the under-insurance problems. We are also interested to know the extent of the Manx2 operation at Belfast with this flight. We understand Manx2 paid for all fuel for the aircraft."
Quote from Mr. Healy-Pratt at the time of the accident.
Mr. Healy-Pratt made the following statement previously to IOM Today, "They promised support and when asked for support, they promptly backed away and said it wasn't their problem." He also sent us this response:
"The short point is an old one, if something walks, talks and looks like a duck, then it usually is a duck."
"Manx 2 identified the route.
Manx2 leased in an operator and crew to fly the route.
Manx2 started an operations base at Belfast for the route.
Manx2 marketed the route, as a Manx2 route.
Manx2 gave the route a Manx2 flight code (NM).
Manx2 had its name on the nose of the plane.
Manx2 'welcome the passengers on board this Manx2 flight'
Manx2 made profit from the route.
Manx2's ticket terms and conditions are not clear."
"Our view is that in any Court in the US, UK, EU, or Ireland, Manx2 would be held jointly responsible with Flightline BCN."
"We are interested to know what due diligence Manx2 did in using Flightline - to what extent did they know about the October 2001 fatal crash with a Metroliner in Spain and the under-insurance problems. We are also interested to know the extent of the Manx2 operation at Belfast with this flight. We understand Manx2 paid for all fuel for the aircraft."
Last edited by runway30; 14th Feb 2012 at 17:09. Reason: Addition
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would imagine to neither of them, but its only a guess of mine that he was self employed.
I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.
There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering.
Then there is BCN providing the AOC
And then there is MANX2 selling the tickets.
I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.
There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering.
Then there is BCN providing the AOC
And then there is MANX2 selling the tickets.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Girona
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The whole thing is going to be a right mess"
I cannot help but think that the families of all concerned might well find the use of the future tense in this phrase, however understandable it might be, very unfortunate indeed.
But the inter-national, inter-company inter-regulatory buck passing (which is already impressive) will doubtless get still more furious as the time comes for the people responsible for this virtual airline which nonetheless managed to kill real people to stand up and be counted
But the inter-national, inter-company inter-regulatory buck passing (which is already impressive) will doubtless get still more furious as the time comes for the people responsible for this virtual airline which nonetheless managed to kill real people to stand up and be counted
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was definately meant to be future tense.
I don't think we have seen the half of it yet.
ticket seller none EU.
AOC holder spanish.
Aircraft Owners private and legged it.
Crash in a EU country.
4 Civil aviation authorites involved. 5 if you include the FAA for Fairchild and Honeywell.
And then we have a change going on in the middle of everything with a central european agency taking over oversight of aviation. What they are meant to do with a company operating from a Crown Dependency outside the EU will prove to be interesting.
I don't think we have seen the half of it yet.
ticket seller none EU.
AOC holder spanish.
Aircraft Owners private and legged it.
Crash in a EU country.
4 Civil aviation authorites involved. 5 if you include the FAA for Fairchild and Honeywell.
And then we have a change going on in the middle of everything with a central european agency taking over oversight of aviation. What they are meant to do with a company operating from a Crown Dependency outside the EU will prove to be interesting.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mad jock, the scenario you suggest is:
The Captain has a financial interest in not diverting (presumably couldn't pass all the cost back to the ticket seller)
The First Officer is sitting next to a Captain who is paying his wages and will therefore find it difficult to object to the Captain wanting to make illegal approaches.
Does anyone think that a passenger would have gone anywhere near that aircraft if they knew of the true circumstances? But then the passengers are led to believe that Manx2 are a proper airline and you wouldn't expect an airline to put you into that situation would you?
The Captain has a financial interest in not diverting (presumably couldn't pass all the cost back to the ticket seller)
The First Officer is sitting next to a Captain who is paying his wages and will therefore find it difficult to object to the Captain wanting to make illegal approaches.
Does anyone think that a passenger would have gone anywhere near that aircraft if they knew of the true circumstances? But then the passengers are led to believe that Manx2 are a proper airline and you wouldn't expect an airline to put you into that situation would you?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Spain
Age: 82
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ladies and gentlemen, you have it in a nutshell. Every organisation involved in this scenario continuues to function with impunity. There are far too many holes in this organisational and governmental swiss cheese for anything to come out of this other than a glorious whitewash. it won't even make national news and will disappear quietly without trace. Not only sad for the families but worrying for the state of European aviation.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Captain on this flight was the only "upgrade" they had.
But!!!
For all of the time he was an FO he had been flying with the Captain and owners.
He might have very well thought it was normal to ignore RVR's and minimums.
The FO will have been line trained by the Captain and owners though as well.
What input the AOC holder had into this training both FO and upgrade I can only imagine. Which is personally where I think the family should focus on. The crew performance on the day won't do thier cause any good what so ever.
O and 99% of pax don't give a toss what the situation is in operating an aircraft. All they care about is that one ticket seller is offering 56 quid and the other one 70 quid.
Try and tell someone not in the industry that a BA ticket although 30 quid more expensive than a going by a LOCO is better value because of interlining and baggage resolution and mutiple hop ticketing V trip ticketing and they will always go for the loco option.
Then of course moan like hell when thier multiple hop falls over and they are stuck with no hotel and a heap of ticket changes to be payed for. If they had payed the 30 quid extra they would have been sent of to a hotel with a 20 quid meal voucher and someone would have dealt with the rest of the changes.
But!!!
For all of the time he was an FO he had been flying with the Captain and owners.
He might have very well thought it was normal to ignore RVR's and minimums.
The FO will have been line trained by the Captain and owners though as well.
What input the AOC holder had into this training both FO and upgrade I can only imagine. Which is personally where I think the family should focus on. The crew performance on the day won't do thier cause any good what so ever.
O and 99% of pax don't give a toss what the situation is in operating an aircraft. All they care about is that one ticket seller is offering 56 quid and the other one 70 quid.
Try and tell someone not in the industry that a BA ticket although 30 quid more expensive than a going by a LOCO is better value because of interlining and baggage resolution and mutiple hop ticketing V trip ticketing and they will always go for the loco option.
Then of course moan like hell when thier multiple hop falls over and they are stuck with no hotel and a heap of ticket changes to be payed for. If they had payed the 30 quid extra they would have been sent of to a hotel with a 20 quid meal voucher and someone would have dealt with the rest of the changes.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TPE 331
The mismatch between the two engines has rather overshadowed the fact that the captain pulled the power levers well into the ground (beta) range some 8 seconds before impact and about a second before the stall warning was recorded.
Having experienced this (just at the flare) on a demonstration flight of a well-known STOL aircraft, I can verify that the braking effect is, to say the least, dynamic! It did, however, result in a very short landing after falling to the ground.
The effect at altitudes above about 6 feet must be horrific.
Having experienced this (just at the flare) on a demonstration flight of a well-known STOL aircraft, I can verify that the braking effect is, to say the least, dynamic! It did, however, result in a very short landing after falling to the ground.
The effect at altitudes above about 6 feet must be horrific.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didn't remember reading that, so , are we assuming that he saw the lights at the last minute & realised he was high, but decided to "go for it" anyhow, or saw the lights after deciding/initiating a go-around & thought "now or never"
For sure it puts a different complexion on it than a simple mishandled go-around.
For sure it puts a different complexion on it than a simple mishandled go-around.