Crash-Cork Airport
Stall seems quite plausible.
FO flying the aircraft on instruments on third approach concentrating on flying the ILS whilst the Captain is looking outside for visual reference and doesn't notice the airspeed reducing below Vapproach until it's too late to recover etc
No excuse for flying the approaches below the required minima though.
FO flying the aircraft on instruments on third approach concentrating on flying the ILS whilst the Captain is looking outside for visual reference and doesn't notice the airspeed reducing below Vapproach until it's too late to recover etc
No excuse for flying the approaches below the required minima though.
Sigh, as predicted by folks who actually know what they are talking about; Another Shyte operator flying a crap airplane with no experience in the cockpit crashes in bad weather.
To all you new guys.......Just say NO !
To all you new guys.......Just say NO !
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Whilst the crash was probably due to a lack of speed control in a bundled go-around off an unstable approach, the point is, they shouldn't have been there to get into trouble. They broke all the rules to get into that position.
I think the proximate cause of this terrible and avoidable accident will turn out to be "financial".
Some questions....
Was there any financial penalties in the contract between the Ticket Provider (new term for airline that accepts no responsibility) and the AOC holder, for not arriving where they should within a specified time frame?
Would it be correct to assume that the Captain was employed by the AOC holder and not the Ticket Provider or the aircraft owner.
Who employed the FO ? Its relevant, as if employed by the Ticket Provider, he may have been instilled with a 'got to get there' way of thinking.
How many hours did the FO have on type. I'm assuming he was type rated for the Metro, but that must have been very quick as, according to the newspapers, he had only had his licence for two weeks. How many sectors had been flown with the training captain ?
Does the Ticket Provider have any financial involvement in the AOC holder?
Not suggesting anything - just asking the questions.
I think the proximate cause of this terrible and avoidable accident will turn out to be "financial".
Some questions....
Was there any financial penalties in the contract between the Ticket Provider (new term for airline that accepts no responsibility) and the AOC holder, for not arriving where they should within a specified time frame?
Would it be correct to assume that the Captain was employed by the AOC holder and not the Ticket Provider or the aircraft owner.
Who employed the FO ? Its relevant, as if employed by the Ticket Provider, he may have been instilled with a 'got to get there' way of thinking.
How many hours did the FO have on type. I'm assuming he was type rated for the Metro, but that must have been very quick as, according to the newspapers, he had only had his licence for two weeks. How many sectors had been flown with the training captain ?
Does the Ticket Provider have any financial involvement in the AOC holder?
Not suggesting anything - just asking the questions.
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Here's a question for Metro III drivers - How does TAWS generate a "Minimums" call as this one appears to have done? The reason I ask is that it is my understanding that this call is generated by descending to a DH set by reference to the Rad. Alt. and not a barometric value. I understand that barometric values are for CAT I approaches where as DH's set relative to Rad. Alt. values are for CAT II/III approaches, which this specific aircraft appears not to capable of performing. Maybe something else for the AAIB to look into.
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Its because all twas and TCAS installations require a rad Alt to be fitted.
Most of them have DH callouts fitted to them. Most CAT I operators seem have it in there SOP's that you set it. Yes I know that CAT I is baro and if its not a CAT II runway its pointless. Been there and had that argument before.
The theory is that its a backup in case you have mucked up setting your QNH.
But if your going to bust mins why bother setting it at all.
Most of them have DH callouts fitted to them. Most CAT I operators seem have it in there SOP's that you set it. Yes I know that CAT I is baro and if its not a CAT II runway its pointless. Been there and had that argument before.
The theory is that its a backup in case you have mucked up setting your QNH.
But if your going to bust mins why bother setting it at all.
Incidentally I wonder who they might actually "discuss with company" their operational issues with. Someone who now emphasises they are only a ticket provider, or someone in Spain.
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Mad Jock - Are suggesting that setting a Rad Alt based DH is an additional reminder of minimums? I can understand that. But I'd love to see that written in a company's Ops Manual.
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Theory is that if you have set the QNH wrong the mins call will save the day. And also that its an additional reminder.
I have my doudts about this catching a QNH issue, as by the far most likely mistake is setting the QNH wrong by 10mb which it isn't going to save you.
And yes it is in the OPS manuals and is signed off by the flight ops inspectors even in the UK.
The issue comes when the runway CAT can't be anything other than CAT 1 because of terrain. You still have to set it and it is useless and triggers at the wrong point.
By far the biggest promoters of using it as such are also the ones that get very upset about what the TCAS display is set on, up down normal and at what range its at for various phases of flight.
But like all these things if its an SOP so we do it. Most of the time DH is set at 200ft and left for months until you get someone that wants to wind a mate up with it calling minimums at 500ft on a CAVOK day.
What do the pilots of CAT II and CAT III machines do with the DH announcer on a CAT I approach?
I have my doudts about this catching a QNH issue, as by the far most likely mistake is setting the QNH wrong by 10mb which it isn't going to save you.
And yes it is in the OPS manuals and is signed off by the flight ops inspectors even in the UK.
The issue comes when the runway CAT can't be anything other than CAT 1 because of terrain. You still have to set it and it is useless and triggers at the wrong point.
By far the biggest promoters of using it as such are also the ones that get very upset about what the TCAS display is set on, up down normal and at what range its at for various phases of flight.
But like all these things if its an SOP so we do it. Most of the time DH is set at 200ft and left for months until you get someone that wants to wind a mate up with it calling minimums at 500ft on a CAVOK day.
What do the pilots of CAT II and CAT III machines do with the DH announcer on a CAT I approach?
Last edited by mad_jock; 21st Mar 2011 at 14:46.
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Certainly BA USED to have this in the 737 manual - where a Radio minimum was published it should be set - this was around 1992-1998 but I think it fell 'out of practice' as no-one really seemed to know which minimum to respond to 
The 73NG will give a '100 to go' and 'minimums' call based on whichever setting is in use, Baro or radio.
The 73NG will give a '100 to go' and 'minimums' call based on whichever setting is in use, Baro or radio.
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What do the pilots of CAT II and CAT III machines do with the DH announcer on a CAT I approach?
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AOC Holder
Interesting to note that Flightline BCN pulled off the route immediately, their website shows a black rectangle on a white background, and the other "San Antonio Sewer Pipe" is parked up at IOM......
I flew from IOM to BHD on Sunday. 30 min before departure "Manannin's Cloak" deprived me of the view of King William's College, followed very rapidly by the airfield. As I lamented the prospect of an inevitable delay, the arriving aircraft taxied in! OK fog's patchy, but I certainly couldn't see a runway about half a kilometre away. That's less than 550m for anyone wrestling with mathematics.
Commercial pressure, certainly a possibility, but I can see it create a lethal sub culture amongst young, inexperienced and diverse crews.
Mind you, the captain on Sunday had white hair.
I flew from IOM to BHD on Sunday. 30 min before departure "Manannin's Cloak" deprived me of the view of King William's College, followed very rapidly by the airfield. As I lamented the prospect of an inevitable delay, the arriving aircraft taxied in! OK fog's patchy, but I certainly couldn't see a runway about half a kilometre away. That's less than 550m for anyone wrestling with mathematics.
Commercial pressure, certainly a possibility, but I can see it create a lethal sub culture amongst young, inexperienced and diverse crews.
Mind you, the captain on Sunday had white hair.
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The A320 will call "100 to go" and "minimums" with reference to the Baro minimums, depending on the avionics standard. Loss of both RA's however kills all auto call outs. Our cat 1 sops are predicated on "manual" cat 1 calls.
It's likely that after 2 go-arounds and 20 mins holding, they would no longer have had the fuel to back to Belfast.
Interesting question with regard to who had operational control.
Talking to Manx2 would be useless, you might as well talk to someone in Google.
It raises the issue of what kind of operational back-up existed at all. It's unlikely, if any operations centre existed, that they had contact, as it's unlikely they had ACARS or HF and there was nobody local. Obviously arriving overhead your destination with no means of operational backup is a normal situation for many airlines, and was even more so in pre-ACARs days, and it's where commanders start to earn their money. However, one wonders what kind of back-up existed at all for the operation.
would they have just gone back to base in Belfast ?
Incidentally I wonder who they might actually "discuss with company" their operational issues with. Someone who now emphasises they are only a ticket provider, or someone in Spain.
Talking to Manx2 would be useless, you might as well talk to someone in Google.
It raises the issue of what kind of operational back-up existed at all. It's unlikely, if any operations centre existed, that they had contact, as it's unlikely they had ACARS or HF and there was nobody local. Obviously arriving overhead your destination with no means of operational backup is a normal situation for many airlines, and was even more so in pre-ACARs days, and it's where commanders start to earn their money. However, one wonders what kind of back-up existed at all for the operation.
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Surely operational control is the remit of the AOC holder - not Manx2.
Cork - Barcelona on VHF (doubtful if any alternative) not remotely feasible.
Base in Belfast - doubtful if this is more than a pigeon hole in a crew room and a cheap flat for crews to doss in.
Many years in (ground) training in the regional industry, both with a manufacturer and a couple of airlines have exposed me to a lot of good and bad. But I am totally flummoxed by the concept of an FO going from employment to line ready (with a newly-promoted captain) in TWO WEEKS!
Newtownards!
Cork - Barcelona on VHF (doubtful if any alternative) not remotely feasible.
Base in Belfast - doubtful if this is more than a pigeon hole in a crew room and a cheap flat for crews to doss in.
Many years in (ground) training in the regional industry, both with a manufacturer and a couple of airlines have exposed me to a lot of good and bad. But I am totally flummoxed by the concept of an FO going from employment to line ready (with a newly-promoted captain) in TWO WEEKS!
Newtownards!
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Ron Herb:
Runway 17 has approach, mid-point, and rollout RVR. If all three are reading 550m or above, and the ALS are clearly in sight at the DA of 200 feet, it is about certain that the seeing conditions exist for a safe CAT I landing.
Sure, I was just musing. IOM fog can be very thick & very rapid.
Last edited by aterpster; 22nd Mar 2011 at 16:00. Reason: correct quote delimiter
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'Interesting question with regard to who had operational control.
Talking to Manx2 would be useless, you might as well talk to someone in Google.'
Fellas, while the operationa control of the aircraft might lie with FCN ie when it has a check I can tell you that MAnx2 has a full 'ops' setup on the Rock that must exercise day to day operational control over the aircraft and their crews. I think its pretty certain that all rostering is done from the Manx2 bunker as well.
I can't find it anymore but I'm damned sure that someone posted an extract from the agreement between FCN and Manx2 that clearly stated that any bills for diversions or operational hiccups would be laid on FCN.
Talking to Manx2 would be useless, you might as well talk to someone in Google.'
Fellas, while the operationa control of the aircraft might lie with FCN ie when it has a check I can tell you that MAnx2 has a full 'ops' setup on the Rock that must exercise day to day operational control over the aircraft and their crews. I think its pretty certain that all rostering is done from the Manx2 bunker as well.
I can't find it anymore but I'm damned sure that someone posted an extract from the agreement between FCN and Manx2 that clearly stated that any bills for diversions or operational hiccups would be laid on FCN.
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Ron If a manx2 flight is delayed from the Rock, or the weather gets bad and thye decide to delay or cancel a flight, who do you think makes the decision.
Juan in BCN probably couldn't give a toss, nor Helmut in Bremen or wherever the german aircraft come from.
When they go, where they go and who flies them are controlled here on the rock. You might want to call it administrative control but I don't think the AOC holdrs are getting a text everytime somethiing need s changing - just too impractical.
Juan in BCN probably couldn't give a toss, nor Helmut in Bremen or wherever the german aircraft come from.
When they go, where they go and who flies them are controlled here on the rock. You might want to call it administrative control but I don't think the AOC holdrs are getting a text everytime somethiing need s changing - just too impractical.