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American Airlines jet goes off runway in Jackson Hole, Wyoming

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American Airlines jet goes off runway in Jackson Hole, Wyoming

Old 30th Dec 2010, 04:33
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I'm assuming the frozen ground saved the plane from serious damage. Lucky. Then again any time there's an over run I guess you're lucky if you escape with your butt intact.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 06:34
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Flew in and out of JAC for several years in the left seat of AA 757's as a line CKA. The south end of the runway could be slick as snot with any thaw and refreeze of water thruout winter days whenever the sun happened to break thru and cause a thawing of any ice on the first 1,000 or 1500 feet of the short runway. AA landing procedures at JAC for the 757 are 30 degrees flaps (full), wing spoilers armed and auto-brakes set at "4" or MAX, either one, at pilot discretion. In the mountain airports or anywhere on shorter or slippery runways, AA trains pilots to plan for and fly the aircraft to a firm touchdown with throttles at idle simultaneously with touchdown and immediately holding light pressure against the thrust reverser interlock detents while smoothly but quickly flying the nose gear onto the runway whereupon the reversers unlock and full reverse thrust is called for during at least the iniital rollout. Of course proper functioning of auto-brakes, spoilers and reversers are briefed to be watched for diligently.
The Captain apparently informed his passengers that the brakes were malfunctioning, who knows to what extent, but as mentioned, those big fans on the RR RB211 are very powerful stoppers, just not as good as wheel brakes once all the weight is on the wheels. Note (yes the RB211's AA uses on it's fleet are of the same family powering certain A380's of recent fame)

Many variables involved, of course, but generally for the shorter city pairs to JAC, like ORD-JAC and DFW-JAC dispatch would have us ferry fuel to save some $$$ since fuel in the mountain airports is astonishingly expensive. That would put aircraft in relatively heavy weights for arrival. My personal operating mode was to refuse ferry fuel when the runways were going to be slippery. I had another quirk that maintenance took about 4 months to adjust itself to. I demanded nearly new or new tread on my tires for mountain flying year round. The FO's loved me on those sometime cold winter days as I did the preflights, going to the tires first. After a few flights delayed for my demanded tire changes, the maintenance department was informed by dispatch whenever I was scheduled to fly to check the tires ASAP on mountain flights I was scheduled for.

At first, when a tire change was called for, a mechanic would check the tires and note the tread was usually within AA Maint/Opspecs. I would always inform them that, yes it was so; but the tires were not up to MY opspecs, for short, slippery runways and usually full of pax and ski stuff. I told my trainees on mountain airport checkouts that was a useful technique (Captains' opspecs) to keep in there repertoire for later usage.

In recent years, don't know if they still are, but suspect it is so...... AA trains pilots to "hit" cities with computer based video flight checkouts. I think Tegucigalpa might be the only city they still actually physically check out a pilot to fly to and perhaps the V-Nav approach to Eagle.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 06:36
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Here's a link to an onboard video. YouTube - Plane Crash in Jackson Hole (Cabin view)
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 09:05
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A looooong way down the runway before the reversers are deployed ...
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 09:23
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Agreed checkboard, but if you look closely at the reverser sleeve, it seems to shift at touchdown, then restow, then deploy...
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 09:27
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Good spot there, eagle-eye.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 09:33
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A looooong way down the runway before the reversers are deployed ...
Indeed. Unfortunately we can't see if the spoilers deployed. Certainly seemed to touchdown firmly within the TDZ as required.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 09:49
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Seemed to take an age (approx 15 seconds) for the reversers to Deploy....saw the little crack/movement, which would be consistent with the WOW sensor..and pulling them back against the interlock.....but they then should have deployed in less than half the time we saw.
Have had a few ocasions where I pulled a little too hard and the reverser arm doesnt move squarely...so you have to restow..and try again.

A quick scan on youtube...and look at how much more quickly the reverser deploys here 757 reverser 3 to 4 seconds by my count
Or here 757 reverser 2 only a couple of seconds
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 11:36
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There is also a 7 to 8 second delay from reverser deployment until you hear thrust applied. Technical fault or not holding lightly against the stops, for immediate application of thrust after deployment?

I've seen guys simply forget to apply reverse for significant time after a difficult approach & landing. It will be interesting to see what transpired in the flight deck.

Hopefully the CVR is fine so, in time, perhaps we can all learn something.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 12:38
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Hmmm, select, cancel, select (reverse)....wasn't that the same slight problem with the Southwest 737 that overran at Midway?
Common technical fault, perhaps?
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 13:06
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Touchdown seems to occur at about 0:25 (jolt and noise) and almost simultaneously the thrust reverser sleeve appears to move but only by a very small amount (look carefully - the join gap noticeably widens). Unable to get the thrust reverser to deploy fully?

At about 0:36 that small gap closes again (re-selecting forward idle?) until 0:41 where the reverser begins to deploy fully. Visually, I get the distinct impression there was a jam in the reverser sleeve and the crew may have been struggling with it? As already mentioned, there does seem to be a delay between full visual deployment and audible spool-up.

Merely my opinion though!
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 13:06
  #32 (permalink)  
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safetypee:

Aterpster, I think that if you reconsider your inference at # 7, that overruns can be avoided by having longer runways, the logic of the argument is flawed.
Re-read the last sentence of my post #7; i.e., the word "many."
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 13:21
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Looks to me he touched down very near the PAPI's which are, I think about 1400' from the threshold there at JAC, about 25 second mark and then sailing on down the runway past taxiway A3 and not until the north end of the terminal, (maybe 2500 feet of runway remaining) and near the crossing of taxiway A2 ..... not until there (about 15 seconds later) does the left engine reverser sleeve translate aft. At least half of the terminal has gone by and looks to me like about 1500 - 2000 ft remaining, the engine spools way up.
There are quite a few shots during the rollout that the camera angle is far enough aft to catch sight of at least some of the outer 4 spoiler panels ..... however none are ever visible to my eyes.
Spoiler issue, either armed or not, the PNF calls out "NO SPOILERS"on touchdown if they do not deploy and the Captain is to deploy them manually.
PNF also immediately calls out any engine not in reverse. The spoilers will not deploy automatically on touchdown unless the throttles are at idle, and if deployed will auto retract if the throttles are advanced even slightly.

I recall occasionally having to wrestle with the reverser interlocks on the 757 to get them to deploy, but never suffered an inability with all hydraulic and aircraft systems functioning properly to deploy the spoilers manually.
For the Captains sake, I hope the auto brake and spoiler systems, if operating,were armed but did not function. I hope for his sake, that the spoilers were deployed either automatically or manually and if not, they failed to deploy to pilot command.
Three items clear from Youtube video.
1. Touchdown reasonably close to PAPI's.
2. No outer wing spoilers.
3. No left engine reverse thrust deployment for at least 15 seconds after TD.
Another detail, JAC runway 19 has a slight downslope, maybe a 40 foot elevation change along the runway from end to end.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 14:04
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777flyer...thanks for setting a good example on critical airport ops.

thanks also for info on downsloping runway...I always briefed that as it is very critical and there is a visual illusion that can make for a long landing...it also allows all the junk on the runway to head towards the end making it slippery (than snot)...one must get it right on the runway and get the stopping drill in place.

I did just read that the CAPTAIN reported that the brakes didn't work. We shall see.

The MIDWAY Southwest over run , a number of problems there...but it took 18 seconds from touchdown to reverser deployment.

I would add to the excellent advice from 777flyer, that before departure to a critical airport that you check the reversers prior to takeoff...is there any delay or physical difficulty with the throttles?

This is an interesting incident and I hope we find out what happened....I wish I could see the video, but as a true airline pilot, I am TOO DAMN CHEAP to buy a computer new enough to make things like this work!
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 14:10
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here are quite a few shots during the rollout that the camera angle is far enough aft to catch sight of at least some of the outer 4 spoiler panels ..... however none are ever visible to my eyes.
That's what I was thinking as well, especially when watching the clip just after 40 seconds. The camera moves just far enough back to where you should see the outboard spoilers, but they are not deployed.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 14:18
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SKS777FLYER,

Are you sure touchdown is after the papi's?
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 15:33
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After watching the video over and over, yes, I think he landed just past the PAPI. JAC RWY 19 has a four light PAPI on the left side about 1400' down the runway. The windsock also on the left is/ used to be within a few hundred feet of the PAPI just south of the PAPI. From the camera perspective, it is hard to tell if the objects just prior to TD are the parallel (side by side) lights of the PAPI, but it looks like perhaps the windsock is dimly visible at second 24, just prior to touchdown.
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 15:45
  #38 (permalink)  
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I know very little about flying 757's, or the use of reverse in a jet. However, my question is: If there were a mechanical failure of the left engine reversing system, would it not be appropriate to at least get the right engine developing some reverse thrust right away, to the extent that the directional control could be maintained with rudder, and steering if effective? Some reverse thrust, even assymetric, would be better than none?

I have first hand experience with the use of reverse on one engine only, on a PT6 powered twin, and was quite impressed as to how much decelleration could be safely achived that way. Would the same apply for the 757?
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 20:05
  #39 (permalink)  
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Failure of the air/ground sensor will cause an exact duplicate of the video...

Without the airplane determining its on the ground, No GROUND spoilers, no reverse, and locked wheel protection in effect, and weeeeeeeeeee off the end of the runway you go, even if its miles long....



Cheers
Andrew
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Old 30th Dec 2010, 20:13
  #40 (permalink)  
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Just one small item to tidy up in your investigation results, Wino - how did the A/G sensor fix itself later?
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