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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:17
  #161 (permalink)  
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It's been reported that the smoke in the Cockpit was so thick that they couldn't read their instruments or change frequencies on the RTP's, so what makes you think they could therefore see outside the windows to avoid a built up area?

I know from Flight Tests that the smoke can get so bad as to make it near impossible to read your flight instruments, overhead panel switches or centre console area.( Boeing smoke removal certification Flt tests of the B744 BCF done in HK with CX )

Last edited by nitpicker330; 4th Sep 2010 at 11:28.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:37
  #162 (permalink)  
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Very sad outcome obviously, I regularly operate 744F's through DXB so this event is far too close to home! I can't help but think if they'd managed to intercept the LOC and G/S on the first approach and autolanded they'd have lived to tell the tale. Smoke in the cockpit is every aviators nightmare, the only solution I've seen is this, evasworldwide dot com . As usual the equipment is available, the difficulty is convincing the bean counters to spend the money!

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Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:41
  #163 (permalink)  
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Gulf News,

I'm a EK pilot as well, who saw the crash unfolding last night...
Earlier today I went out there and tried finding the wreckage. I was at the spot your friend David defined and saw nothing...We even walked for a while.

Strangely enough we did not see any police, firebrigade, etc... No signs of smoke anymore neither.

Since I could not find anything after my 2 hrs search, I suspect it is inside the military camp.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:51
  #164 (permalink)  
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sixteen great big tyres, when burning, will creat a very strong smell of burning rubber.
18 technically, but I know what you mean.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:55
  #165 (permalink)  
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A 747-400 cockpit escape hatch:

Judging by its position, the external pressure on the fuselage at the hatch location should be considerably lower than the static (atmospheric) pressure, so even with the cabin depressurised, air should still be sucked out of the cockpit, as long as it's pumped in from somewhere else (packs or ram air intake, if there's any).
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 12:00
  #166 (permalink)  
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np330 - spot on.

I am still trying to figure out how they managed to navigate that far, while being unable to change freq. due to lack of visibility. If the comms were not visible, I would suggest that little else was - particularly the view out front.

For anyone to suggest the avoidance of a built up area visually under such conditions seems somewhat preposterous!

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Old 4th Sep 2010, 13:19
  #167 (permalink)  
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A bit strange that we don't have any (edit/update: ok, now a few) pictures yet. Maybe because on military site...? I am mentioning not for sensationalism but since these can be informative for the experts with respect to extend of damage, flap settings, engines etc. (see recent LH accident).

Last edited by grimmrad; 4th Sep 2010 at 14:05. Reason: new photos
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 13:28
  #168 (permalink)  
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Spend some time looking at the available photos and google earth and it was very clear to me that the wreckage is within the Army camp. Not visible due to the surrounding walls.

These brand new pictures now confirm my thoughts...

Dubai plane crash: Two crew die after cargo jet explodes into an 'almighty ball of flame' after takeoff | Mail Online
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 13:28
  #169 (permalink)  
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That escape hatch looks like a plug type door, your not getting that open in flight (the higher inside pressure pushes it into the door jam).

Plus with the smoke you would have to get up out of your seat and find it and that isn't even likely
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 13:35
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It ain't hard to find, you could do it with your eyes closed. How you'd get there with an Eros oxygen mask on is another matter. With the aircraft depressurised you might be able to open the hatch but whether it helps or not depends on where the smoke's coming from. If it's in the cabin then you've got effectively unlimited smoke to be drawn into the flight deck. Bad times. If it's from the flight deck then I can't imagine there's anything in there that can generate a volume of smoke greater than the volume of air being sucked out of that hatch so it might be beneficial. If all else had failed I'd be inclined to give it a try.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 13:53
  #171 (permalink)  
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UPS Cargo Plane Crashes Near Dubai - WSJ.com
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 14:23
  #172 (permalink)  
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From pictures it is pretty obvious that they crashed within the perimeter of the military camp and that some buildings where significantly damaged.

From what we can see from the relatively limited debris field it would seem that they hit in not such a shallow angle as previously thought. In any case a very nasty story which could have been much worse
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 14:38
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Thanks to the many eye- and ear-witness reports here. The company is not releasing the names yet, as far as I know. And as there were only the crew, you can imagine it has not made much of a ripple back in the US except here in Louisville where UPS has its worldport.

And thank you for the kind thoughts as well.

Former Whale driver,
Now AirBus
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 14:57
  #174 (permalink)  
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There have been enough of these incidents to start thinking about it from a serious engineering standpoint. The plane is going down if the pilots can't see, so the number 1 problem is to create visibility in the cockpit - you can't rely on open windows or port for that - the best way is to create a pressure differential between cockpit and cabin, meaning somehow in freighters the cockpit itself has to be inside its own pressure vessel - that would not be too hard to implement with the proper bulkheads and vents. In a dire emergency one should be able to isolate the cockpit and generate enough pressure in it to force the smoke out into the lower pressure environment of the cargo cabin. A variation on the RAT could be used to generate pressure for the cockpit while the rest of the plane is at ambient atmospheric pressure. After some googling, it appears that even in submarines this is not exactly a solved problem. Time for the engineers to sharpen their pencils.

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Old 4th Sep 2010, 15:13
  #175 (permalink)  
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Actually the best way is to fill a clear plastic bag with a clear gas, which can then be pressed against both the instrument faces and the windows:

EVAS - Emergency Vision Assurance System
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 15:32
  #176 (permalink)  
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This accident should raise everyone`s awareness of the dangers that exist in the skies today. I`m eager to hear what BrowntailWhale has to say about this tragedy , as he often has good input regarding UPS Ops and the cargo business in general. Let`s hope we hear from him soon.

It comes as no suprise to me that the big 4 , FedEx , UPS , DHL and TNT all consistently report billions in annual profits , yet no one can say 100 % exactly what is being carried on board their cargo aircraft around the world.

There will be no sharpening of engineers`pencils unless and until these operators show a willingness to address hazmat / dangerous goods , known and unknown cargo , fire suppression systems and the financial costs they`ll incur to remedy such a blatant example of " turning a blind eye. "

These guys are heroes for helping to avoid an even larger tragedy.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 15:37
  #177 (permalink)  
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I've seen thermal imagers used by firefighters in training scenarios, and been allowed a squint through them myself, and they CAN see right through the thickest smoke. Bloody amazing.
Just bear in mind you would likely have nil outside visibility with a thermal solution; the window pane would be heated to some extent and be presented as a blank surface of a given colour.

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Old 4th Sep 2010, 15:38
  #178 (permalink)  
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These guys are heroes for helping to avoid an even larger tragedy
Here we come again... How on earth can you come up with such a statement at this point ? Maybe so, but there is absolutely no way to know.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 15:38
  #179 (permalink)  
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No chance

I have my doubts that a UPS crew would be familiar with the position of a military field in the UAE. They probably know the big ones Dubai, Abu etc .... While they were fighting for their lives. The only thing on their mind was to return DXB and land.

Started dumping fuel immediately to reduce weight is an option but not necessary on the B 747 going from DXB to FRA even at max payload. DXB runways are long enough to go for an overweight.

Having said so, if there is a real fire going on you have no chance. Smoke .. maybe .... but Fire ... no way. I doubth if there is any engineering solution for this except to blow out the front windows, but that's an assumption.

It shows once more that briefing and being prepared for an immediate return is not a silly thing to do. This is ofte perceived as .... Well ... Ok .... But ... It happens

But if you can not even stay in your seat because of the heat etc .....

It is too early to tell but it shows that a close inspection of the cargo before departure is essential. However we all know how it goes. Doors closed at last minute, briefing, ATC etc ...... of we go

I feel very sorry for the crew

Last edited by Pitch Up Authority; 4th Sep 2010 at 15:52.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 15:51
  #180 (permalink)  
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Minhad is 09/27 rwy direction. They would have been approaching it at nearly an exactly perpendicular track where they came from after being too high at Dubai. There is nothing at all around the runway there so it would stand out if the runway lights were on. If anything, the theory that they put it down where they did on purpose sounds correct as at night, that area would have been the start of the blackness beyond the built up area.

This is a pretty good map of the area. If you scroll out on the scale and look notrth, it is nearly a straight line through the E311 intersection to DXB.

Dubai Minhad Airport Map | United Arab Emirates Airports
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