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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

Old 4th Sep 2010, 07:18
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Smoke removal

Apologies if already covered.

The only time I've had smoke in the cockpit I had the option of opening a window (Big help). Since then it is a question I ask when introduced to a new type, often feeling like a bit of a tw%t for asking. Can you open a window on a Boeing 747-400F?
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 07:32
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Nope but there is a smoke evac handle overhead which when pulled opens a port just between the observers seat and flt deck door in the ceiling - Better and more controlled than opening a window.....
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 07:38
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Nope, None of the cockpit windows open in any way.
The Smoke EVAC handle is a primitive method of trying to get rid of SOME smoke. Downside is, that it depressurises the aircraft.
I doubt it would ever clear enough or all of the smoke.

Fact remains, that this is one of the worst things to deal with on an aircraft, and it is all to easy to come up with possible sollutions in the comfort of your chair infront of the computer, but alltogether a very different story when you are effectively BLIND and have a noisy, uncomfortable oxygenmask strapped to your face, that adds to your stress levels and impedes communication and vision further.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 07:52
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Metars:
OMDB 031700Z 22004KT 8000 NSC 35/29 Q1000 NOSIG
OMDB 031600Z 24004KT 8000 NSC 36/27 Q1000 NOSIG
OMDB 031500Z 32006KT 290V030 8000 NSC 35/28 Q0999 NOSIG

OMDB 031400Z 30010KT 8080 NSC 36/26 Q0999 NOSIG
OMDB 031300Z 31011KT 290V350 8000 NSC 37/27 Q0999 NOSIG
OMDB 031200Z 30012KT 8000 NSC 37/27 Q1000 NOSIG
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 08:08
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Pulling the Smoke Handle does not depressurize the Aircraft!! I've pulled it all the way out in flight and it didn't effect the Cabin Alt one little bit!! The hole is just too small and the outflow valves much bigger anyway.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 08:09
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Halfnut,

This one hasn't been confirmed as a main deck cargo fire just yet. Avionics smoke could also be a cause. I know the avionics compartment is one deck lower but theres plenty of components in the flight deck that could produce smoke.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 08:35
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Do you still have the crew on ground evacuation hatch in the roof of the flight deck on the later B 747 aircraft? Yes I know a crew member would need to leave his seat to operate, and other considerations, but it is quite a big hole. Just offering a discussion point for those better qualified than me to consider.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 08:57
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps people should read the rather comprehensive "SMOKE, FIRE AND FUMES IN TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT" report by the RAeS and GAPAN.
PDF here . Full of useful information.

(quite a large PDF by the way)

As for opening windows and hatches...

In cases of continuous smoke, no manufacture suggests opening a window, because it can cause the fire to spread. Several serious in-flight fires show that the flight crews opened the window without improving the visibility significantly and, in some cases it was made worse. An open window creates high wind noise, which prevents effective communication between crewmembers. The high noise level prevents checklist accomplishment and also prevents a crewmember from assisting the flying pilot during the landing with callouts (which may be vital in limited visibility of a smoke filled flight deck).
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 09:17
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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As for HAZMAT, Dubai is not always honest in what they load vs what they show on the NOTOC. Time will tell.
At FDX, UPS, DHL . . .the hazmat/dangerous goods danger is not always known where INDIVIDUAL non-aviation customers [shippers] send their "stuff." It's just as when you ship a personal package and forget to declare that you've included a hazardous substance, and did not package it properly. The carrier cannot physically open and inspect every parcel that's made it past the x-ray, explosives detectors and sniffing dogs routine.

The crews are exposed to potential danger, because for the most part, they are at the mercy of shippers' honesty in declaring what's inside their parcels.
I think that's why FDX is one outfit that's serious about main deck fire suppression.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 09:31
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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To open the escape hatch in the roof you'd need to be fully depressurized and have the packs off. I doubt very much that would work and if it could Boeing would have directed it in the QRH NNC.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 09:44
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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cockpit hatch

there is indeed a hatch in the roof, problem is, it's a plug type, inward opening fit, and unless the aircraft was nearly fully depressurized, no way could they open it.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 09:57
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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??? Even at the low altitude they were flying?
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 10:14
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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I seem to recall a (successful) emergency landing in Scandinavia in the 1980s on an MD80 (?) after a serious smoke in the cockpit incident.

Biggest problems were communications between the two crew on masks, but also the density of the smoke. FO found it very difficult to read the checklist even with the aid of torch and holding it close up. At one point he dropped it, which didn't help.

Another issue was smoke particles sticking to the PFD making it very difficult to see. The Capt had to keep wiping the particles off, using his hands but still had to use a torch.

Somewhere in SAS there's a good video reconstruction of this and an interview with the crew.

This was in daytime, so you can see the density of the smoke alone can be a real hazard.

BEX
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 10:44
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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UPS 747 Crash site, Dubai - Google Maps


A DSO resident and EK colleague plotted the approximate coordinates of the crash site on Google earth (I hope he doesn't mind me using it). The area where the aircraft crashed is a military encampment. If you zoom in a little and look a few hundred meters to the north west you can make out a series of isolated buildings joined by sealed roadworks. If I am not mistaken these are munitions storage bunkers.Whilst not wanting to detract from the severity of this accident, if the aircraft had landed on top of these the results could have been even more spectacular.

A very lucky day for all except the two brave souls on the 747.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 10:45
  #155 (permalink)  
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today's big headline is the newspaper is that both pilots are dead...
they both were americans, it was a UPS b747F flying to germany, it was carrying mainly electronics and toys,
according to eye witnesses investigators are saying that an engine fire is suspected, but thats not confirmed....apparently at the crash site, more than anything there was a very very strong smell of burning rubber...
people also say that the pilots had control till the last minute, as the plane was going to crash at a residential area, but at the last minute they managed to turn it and crashed around a pass road of the emirates road motorway...
 
Old 4th Sep 2010, 10:47
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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I used to use that SAS video when conducting initial CRM training. It is excellent. They had the advantage of a flight attendant, on his own initiative, opening the cockpit door and discharging a fire extinguisher into the source of the fire, which as I recall was electrical center behind the captain's seat. Both crewmembers did have some very good observations regarding the environment in the cockpit.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 10:59
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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@117. Nitrous oxide (laughing gas) is just one of the byproducts of nitric acid reacting with organic materials. Higher order oxides are also produced, and these compounds are nasty and irritating to the airways and eyes. (Think of the brown stuff in smog.)
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:03
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Just a thought... if restricted visibility in smoke is such a serious issue (which it seems to be, based on reports from crews who've had to cope with it), thermal imaging goggles might be the way to go? I've seen thermal imagers used by firefighters in training scenarios, and been allowed a squint through them myself, and they CAN see right through the thickest smoke. Bloody amazing.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:04
  #159 (permalink)  
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confirmed....apparently at the crash site, more than anything there was a very very strong smell of burning rubber...
sixteen great big tyres, when burning, will creat a very strong smell of burning rubber.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 11:17
  #160 (permalink)  

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.the hazmat/dangerous goods danger is not always known where INDIVIDUAL non-aviation customers [shippers] send their "stuff."
In the past I have ordered substances, classed as HAZMAT by the shippers. I paid for surface shipping yet somewhere along the line somebody "did me a favour" and dispatched them by air.

I wasn't happy and complained to the shipper who seemed totally unconcerned. I then forwarded the info to the carrier who scknowledged receipt of the complaint but AFAIK did nothing further.

I no longer use either supplier or shipper.
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