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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

Old 4th Sep 2010, 15:59
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Nice to know Mr Sandman. But the 747 falls like a brick if you drop the gear .... but we can only gues as to the energy state of the 747 at that time. I believe circumstances were such that simply staying in your seat was already horrific
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:03
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Thermal Imaging cameras can't see through glass so you would not be able to see out of the windows or anything displayed on any of the instruments.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:11
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Was this a 747F or a 747BCF? Are there any differances regarding the fire supression system?
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:24
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Sandman,

I would love to go with the theory that they put it down where they did deliberately - and it may yet come to be proved so.

I repeat, though, that this is somewhat unlikely, seeing as they couldn't, in the 30 mins from Bahrain FIR to OMDB, see enough to attempt a frequency change.

I have no doubt that these guys did an amazing job to get as far as they did - but I really don't think that anything visual was ever on the cards.

Guy.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:31
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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It was a 747F delivered by Boeing in 2007 if indeed it was N571UP.

I have a question for the 747 drivers out there though. How much undiluted oxygen is there? Could there have been a problem after flying for 25-30 minutes?

I still find it strange that they elected to go to DXB. Both AUH and DWC would seem closer as well as DOH.

Tragic event nontheless..
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:35
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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I would love to go with the theory that they put it down where they did deliberately - and it may yet come to be proved so.
As would I especailly as the aircraft passed over my villa at a few hundred feet just before crashing but sadly, and with no disrespect to the crew, I think it was luck more than anything else that it ended up where it did.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:47
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Puppeteer,

plenty of oxy to fly for a couple of hours with the masks on.

GD
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:54
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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A horrible accident...I can't imagine how horrible those last few minutes were for the crew...

I have seen EVAS mentioned a couple of times in this thread. The solution to smoke in the cockpit has been around for years and it works. We have it installed on our aircraft and I've practiced with it in the sim. If the jet is flyable and you are in a condition to fly, you can.
EVAS - Emergency Vision Assurance System

Basically, it is a low-pressure clear bag that inflates in front of the pilot and presses up against the instrument panel and the window. Don your smoke goggles and oxygen mask, press your face against the bag and you can see through the clear air inside the bag enough to fly the jet. When not in use, it stows in a box the size of a Jepp binder next to your seat.

Time will tell whether EVAS would have made a difference here.
Best,
GC
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 16:59
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Puppeteer

The decision to return to DXB -- rather than Doha, Al Maktoum, or (especially) Abu Dhabi -- indicates that the situation as presented to the crew at that time was not such that the crew was thinking "nearest suitable". Damn damn damn.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 17:00
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Below is an account found on an enthusiast's site. It may give some idea as to the actual timings. It was posted last night so some of the information will have been superseded by now.

This evening UPS B744F N571UP flight UPS6 en-route from DXB-Cologne crashed on approach to DXB local time at 1941. N571UP departed DXB at 18.52. At just before 19.40 it appeared overhead above the Sheraton Deira hotel at 4,000ft, this took me by surprise as aircraft don't route overhead the hotel when downwind to runway 30, they are further over towards Sharjah. I didn't think much of it at the time apart from why was it routing that way?, it was only as I carried on watching it descend towards the airport my attention turned to my SBS and I carried on watching it on there and noticed it descending very fast. I lost contact at 19.41. Again at that time I didn't think nothing of it as I didn't hear no explosion or anything. The only thing I did notice was 13 aircraft on my SBS all holding for about 10-15 mins. Never before have I seen so many holding over the sea. It was only when I recieved a text from a mate living local asking if I was ok? and asking if I had heard anything about a UPS crashing? I turned on CNN and it was breaking news. Sad news indeed.

Contrary to what the local news and CNN are reporting here is the UPS crashed on take-off. It did NOT! Aircraft are currently departing towards the hotel, if it had crashed on take-ff I might not be here now !!!!! see live data below from my SBS.

A753F0 UPS6 N571UP B744 600 14500 03/09/2010 18:52:02 A753F0
UPS6 N571UP B744 26800 1025 03/09/2010 19:16:55

On checking Basestation reporter and running off an arrivals log N571UP was last recorded at 1941 at 1,025ft . So it departed at 1852 and went down at 1941. I picked it up at 1916 descending through 26,800ft, I don't have what height it reached on leaving Dubai as my box was off for a short period.

Reports coming out of Dubai are still very sketchy and conflicting as to what caused the crash. As I saw it minutes before it went down no fire was visible from the aircraft.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 17:30
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Zoom compresses distances -- from estimated impact point to burnt structures is approx 400 meters:

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Old 4th Sep 2010, 17:49
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Do you still have the crew on ground evacuation hatch in the roof of the flight deck on the later B 747 aircraft? Yes I know a crew member would need to leave his seat to operate, and other considerations, but it is quite a big hole. Just offering a discussion point for those better qualified than me to consider.
To answer a few questions...

The cockpit smoke removal on the 400 is essentially a remote lever to open what amounts to a sextant port. The Classics still had the sextant port (Smoke Evacuation Port), which was opened by the FE in order to follow the Cockpit Smoke/Fume Evacuation checklist. The port is only about an inch and a half (38mm) in diameter, and would not depressurize the aircraft.

WRT the overhead escape hatch...

Even depressurized with the packs off and at slow speed, there is such a low pressure area outside that hatch that opening it is next to impossible. We tried, in order to reseat the hatch due to improper closing and a deafening whistle inflight. Getting it open more than 1/2 inch requires superhuman strength that exceeded the strength of a rather large jumpseater. Doing it blind with smoke, and probably having to remove the O2 mask in order to reach the hatch, while removing an assisting crewmember from the seat during an incredibly busy time, isn't a practical matter.

There are no opening windows in the cockpit of a 747.

FWIW, I knew and previously flew with the Captain on that flight. He flew FE and FO with me on the Classics and I gave him IOE when he upgraded to Captain. I enjoyed his company and he always did a great job as a crewmember. RIP and sincere condolences to his family and friends.

Don't ask me for the crew names. Those will be released in due time.

These guys were served a plate of doom. Like Swissair @ Halifax, and short of getting the airplane on the ground immediately at the first sign of fire/smoke, I doubt that anyone could have done better. What is needed on freighters is a main deck fire suppression system. Unfortunately, when the body count gets to a high enough level, that might happen. Personally, I think it's way overdue.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:06
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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250 kts

4000 above the Sheraton Deira ! That is nowhere near the correct flight path for runway 30. (as the enthusiast says he should have been almost over Sharjah at that height for a normal approach).. does this not give more credence to reports that he was subsequently directed to Minhad since the following right turn would not have taken him on a routing for a 30 approach but an attempt at 12?.. All very sad.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:14
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Just bear in mind you would likely have nil outside visibility with a thermal solution; the window pane would be heated to some extent and be presented as a blank surface of a given colour.
You know, you're right. I'd forgotten that. In fact it's worse; when you mentioned that, I remembered being told that glass acts like a rather poor mirror to the wavelengths used by thermal imagers. I proved this by dragging out my rifle, which has an ex-military thermal night sight (shhhh! ), and I could actually see myself rather vaguely reflected in the window when trying to look through it. Certainly couldn't see through the window.

Scratch that idea.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:15
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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That's amazing that an enthusiast can pick up that much data. I can see a day when a government embargo on crash information doesn't matter much anymore. I like how governments that are systematically embargoing information are systematically making safety more difficult for the rest of us.

I used to use that SAS video when conducting initial CRM training
Thanks for this. I wonder if someone will post the SAS video, I'd be interested to watch it for PPL training / interest.

Accha
[SLF, no jorno!]
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:30
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at that photo, it seems very lucky that no-one was hurt on the ground.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:44
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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As there are only two or three crew on a large freighter, and given the track record of hazardous cargo being hazardous by definition, incorrectly loaded or documented, why not give the crew parachutes? (With appropriate training, of course.)
When sh*ts are trumps, a broken limb or two is far preferable to the alternative.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:50
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Fuel jettison with fire onboard?

Much as I appreciate the crews' desire to return for a safe landing pronto, I really don't think they would have opted to dump fuel with a fire onboard.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:55
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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I have used Minhad a number of times and information on it is almost non-existent..There is an ILS on 27 but try finding a chart for it.The airport does not even appear in supplements from some well known chart suppliers..I would very much doubt that this crew were even aware of it's existence.
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Old 4th Sep 2010, 18:55
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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With respect to the smoke evacuation questions, with all packs running and a window out a 744 will maintain diff (or close to it), so the smoke evac handle wont depressurise the airplane. Its too small a hole.

In the mean time, as mentioned earlier, these poor guys were served something that none of us could have done a better job with. Forget heroics and dodging populated areas, once you are in such a dire situation, you focus only on landing and survival. There is not a "professional" amongst us who can honestly say that we would do otherwise. A fire drill in the simulator does NOT equate to the scenario that (as far as we know) these guys had to deal with.

"Enthusiasts" may mine the net for data that results in a sensational post on the web, but any theorizing at this point is pointless. Every time an airplane hits the ground or water we are bombarded with expert opinions or hypothesis on what might have happened. It takes time and a thorough investigation to yield facts. In the meantime, although most of us have no immediate connection with the two guys on the flight in question you MUST stop and consider that you could very easily find yourself in such a situation, no matter what you fly. Such is the unforgiving nature of aviation.

Don't think that this can never happen to you. I pray that it never does, but if two fellow aviators lost their lives in this tragedy we should at least take away from this a caution that ops are not always normal.

I feel for their families, their colleagues and everyone else who has suffered.

PS, Before the conjecture begins as to whether ATC directed them towards Minhad, it might be beneficial to hear from an ATCO...........

Last edited by frijmagnit; 5th Sep 2010 at 05:11. Reason: Corrected, my notes actually say one window out not 2.
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