UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai
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no,not on the main deck,just the bellies. Cockpit fire, remember the Swissair MD11 at Halifax and how quick that developed. Fire to me is one of the worst things that can happen to you in a ac.
I think many of you are missing what some (literally on scene) ppruners have tried to tell you:
The aircraft had departed for Cologne much earlier than you are surmising. Its difficulties began whilst in Bahrain's airspace and they elected to return to DXB. On their first approach things got very bad very quickly and (without too much detail) they were unable to see their instruments or the airport.
Things were obviously VERY VERY nasty for these two guys.
The aircraft had departed for Cologne much earlier than you are surmising. Its difficulties began whilst in Bahrain's airspace and they elected to return to DXB. On their first approach things got very bad very quickly and (without too much detail) they were unable to see their instruments or the airport.
Things were obviously VERY VERY nasty for these two guys.
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The B747-4 has main deck detection, but no suppression. The Suppression in the main deck is to depressurize the aircraft at altitude. The lower lobes have detection and suppression. There is a Fire extinguisher and a wand to fight a fire but not likely to happen operating with two crewmembers.
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Dumping is only usefull if you really need to squeeze the last performance out of your plane. You dump 2.5 tons a minute and speeds go down 1 knot per 5 tons.
So the fact that they were dumping suggests a performance issue, ie 1 or more engines out.
On the other hand there are strong reports of heavy smoke in the cockpit.
Unless these are related (ie airco smoke due to contaminated bleed air from a partly failed engine.. quite remote in this severity I might add), it is a multiple failure. Not unlike a sim-scenario after all.
So the fact that they were dumping suggests a performance issue, ie 1 or more engines out.
On the other hand there are strong reports of heavy smoke in the cockpit.
Unless these are related (ie airco smoke due to contaminated bleed air from a partly failed engine.. quite remote in this severity I might add), it is a multiple failure. Not unlike a sim-scenario after all.
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Does UPS use EVAS in their cockpits? Would it have made a difference in this mishap? ... Too soon to know... These are questions that may be asked in due time.
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I confirm it was not quick at all.
They started their emergency descent around the Bahrain/Doha area. I estimate their crash to have occurred after 20-25mins.
I doubt a bleed/pack smoke. He stated more then once "we are on fire" which makes me believe he actually had evidence there was fire.
They started their emergency descent around the Bahrain/Doha area. I estimate their crash to have occurred after 20-25mins.
I doubt a bleed/pack smoke. He stated more then once "we are on fire" which makes me believe he actually had evidence there was fire.
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Fire in the cockpit (or anywhere in the aircraft) shortly after T.O. is just too much workload for only a crew of two to be reasonably expected to handle on an aircraft of this size and complexity.
. . but then again, only two have unfortunately lost their lives - not three.
. . but then again, only two have unfortunately lost their lives - not three.
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meekg said
This is far too long. With a fire you have to get down ASAP, it cannot wait as rate of system deterioration is unpredictable.
I confirm it was not quick at all. They started their emergency descent around the Bahrain/Doha area. I estimate their crash to have occurred after 20-25mins.
Cockpit fire, remember the Swissair MD11 at Halifax and how quick that developed. Fire to me is one of the worst things that can happen to you in a ac.
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LongB, I agree. there is not much info at this moment therefore I suggest guys to take it easy with all sorts af assumptions. I read all sorts of stuff but there is not a single evidence yet of what happened apart from the fact that the crew declared emergency and there is a post on the previous page of the user meekg that witnesed on the ATC.
"After attempting a straight in approach for 12L and getting there high and fast they were suggested to try OMSJ on hdg 090 or make a 360°.
I am afraid they lost spacial orientation while trying to join a RH downwidn for 12L.
They seemed to be unable to see any flight instrument or radio in the cockpit and they continously asked for their altitude, speed, heading to ATC through the realy of other airplanes cause they could not see their own radio panel to swith to UAE Control or Dubai Tower."
Obivously they had a serious techincal problem but very little is known at this point so I suggest to not post all sorts of possible scenarios untill more is known.
"After attempting a straight in approach for 12L and getting there high and fast they were suggested to try OMSJ on hdg 090 or make a 360°.
I am afraid they lost spacial orientation while trying to join a RH downwidn for 12L.
They seemed to be unable to see any flight instrument or radio in the cockpit and they continously asked for their altitude, speed, heading to ATC through the realy of other airplanes cause they could not see their own radio panel to swith to UAE Control or Dubai Tower."
Obivously they had a serious techincal problem but very little is known at this point so I suggest to not post all sorts of possible scenarios untill more is known.
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Be advised that the Journalistic Vultures are circling already and already sprouting ****e that they don't understand from reading the boards here
UPS cargo plane crashes in Dubai, killing two | World news | The Guardian
Cheers
K
UPS cargo plane crashes in Dubai, killing two | World news | The Guardian
Cheers
K
cockpit fire development time
Had a mate have a cockpit fire on a Swissair MD80 ex Munich. Within a couple of minutes the could see hardly anything, did a 180 and carried out an autoland downwind.
Fortunately they traced the source very quickly - the emergency power bus bar in the overhead panel. Skipper got a bit burnt and they couldn't see out to clear the runway until they had taken off the smoke goggles - the whole interior had been covered in fine grey ash within minutes.
The flight was around 20 mins with the smoke developing 10 mins after take off.
BOAC also nearly lost a VC10 ex New York? with aircon smoke when the skipper got engines to jump into the electric smoke checklist rather too quickly. They lost most of the instruments and entered a spiral dive rather promptly.
The very junior nav f/o pushed his nose and torch into the face of the standby horizon and yelled instructions to the captain.
I think that they bent the fin but it flew again - they got some sort of award!
Fortunately they traced the source very quickly - the emergency power bus bar in the overhead panel. Skipper got a bit burnt and they couldn't see out to clear the runway until they had taken off the smoke goggles - the whole interior had been covered in fine grey ash within minutes.
The flight was around 20 mins with the smoke developing 10 mins after take off.
BOAC also nearly lost a VC10 ex New York? with aircon smoke when the skipper got engines to jump into the electric smoke checklist rather too quickly. They lost most of the instruments and entered a spiral dive rather promptly.
The very junior nav f/o pushed his nose and torch into the face of the standby horizon and yelled instructions to the captain.
I think that they bent the fin but it flew again - they got some sort of award!
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grizzled:
That would appear so to me. If they perceived a critical situation earlier, you'd think they would have headed directly to the desert - or the Gulf.
The aircraft had departed for Cologne much earlier than you are surmising. Its difficulties began whilst in Bahrain's airspace and they elected to return to DXB. On their first approach things got very bad very quickly and (without too much detail) they were unable to see their instruments or the airport.
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Just remembered something a very fine check airman made me do on my IOE on the 744F back in 98. I thought he was a bit of a wombat at the time but he made me close my eyes and find the smoke evacuation handle by feel. Think I'll re-practice that tomorrow.
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halifax crash was sept 2, 1998...but that is local time...interesting question of "times" and coincidence...
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I think of all the fires aloft...Valujet in florida with passengers... the UPS DC8 at Philadelphia (KPHL) a few years ago due to lithium battery fire...and our friend EK GANN's "Fate is the Hunter" adventure...he found the sucker hole that was big enough to spiral down rather than do the instrument apch.
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I think of all the fires aloft...Valujet in florida with passengers... the UPS DC8 at Philadelphia (KPHL) a few years ago due to lithium battery fire...and our friend EK GANN's "Fate is the Hunter" adventure...he found the sucker hole that was big enough to spiral down rather than do the instrument apch.
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Wonder if this might have helped?
EVAS - Emergency Vision Assurance System
A UK CAA report (in 2002) supports the generally held view that, from the first indication that there is a fire onboard the aircraft, the crew historically has approximately 17 minutes to get the aircraft on the ground.
See: Fire in the Air
and: In-Flight Fire: Guidance for Flight Crews
Fighting a fire on the main cargo deck of a freighter, i.e. when there's only two crew members onboard is almost an impossibility, especially when you consider that a fire that goes undetected for even 2 minutes can turn into a monster to deal with.
EVAS - Emergency Vision Assurance System
A UK CAA report (in 2002) supports the generally held view that, from the first indication that there is a fire onboard the aircraft, the crew historically has approximately 17 minutes to get the aircraft on the ground.
See: Fire in the Air
and: In-Flight Fire: Guidance for Flight Crews
Fighting a fire on the main cargo deck of a freighter, i.e. when there's only two crew members onboard is almost an impossibility, especially when you consider that a fire that goes undetected for even 2 minutes can turn into a monster to deal with.
Last edited by Old King Coal; 3rd Sep 2010 at 20:22.
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Guy on CNN - sounds Aussie or Kiwi - says no fire visible on plane, did not mention trailing smoke, did say plane was banked and yawed and losing height with engines "struggling", passed over about 150 ft. Saw fireball. Sounds credible.
-drl
-drl