Airblue down near Islamabad
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Quite - the post by bus junkie came as a surprise (411A's did not
). Mine was merely a log on the fire to attempt to try to see a way out of what appears to be a cul-de-sac (mixed metaphor alley!). What would be the next restriction? Manual flight only in emergency conditions? Heaven help all pax and c/crew.
EDIT: "know what adrenaline is" - I have always had this sneaking suspicion that a bean-counter does indeed get an adrenaline rush from a spreadsheet
On another forum our recently departed poster is still talking about a 'teardrop' procedure onto R12 (but also suggesting that the supposed co-pilot's frantic scream of "Sir - pull-up, pull-up" was being confused with the EGPWS callout - damned civilised EGPWS that - RHIP?)
). Mine was merely a log on the fire to attempt to try to see a way out of what appears to be a cul-de-sac (mixed metaphor alley!). What would be the next restriction? Manual flight only in emergency conditions? Heaven help all pax and c/crew.EDIT: "know what adrenaline is" - I have always had this sneaking suspicion that a bean-counter does indeed get an adrenaline rush from a spreadsheet
On another forum our recently departed poster is still talking about a 'teardrop' procedure onto R12 (but also suggesting that the supposed co-pilot's frantic scream of "Sir - pull-up, pull-up" was being confused with the EGPWS callout - damned civilised EGPWS that - RHIP?
)
Last edited by BOAC; 28th Aug 2010 at 12:37.
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Airblue cockpit had a third person
‘Airblue cockpit had a third person’
By Imran Ali Teepu
Saturday, 28 Aug, 2010
The source said that investigators were trying to determine why the aircraft drifted five nautical miles away from its original route. – Reuters Photo
ISLAMABAD: A team investigating the crash of the ill-fated Airblue jetliner on July 28 in Islamabad has detected the possible presence of a third person in the cockpit. Under normal circumstances, a cockpit is not supposed to have anyone other than the pilot and the co-pilot.
“The investigators have reportedly heard the voice of a third person in the cockpit of the Airblue jetliner,” a source close to the investigation told Dawn on condition of anonymity.
The voice has been extracted from the Cockpit Voice Recorder, according to the source, and the investigators were looking into various possibilities and aspects.
The CVR, which is part of the ‘Black Box’, is a flight recorder used to document the audio environment in the cockpit of an aircraft. In order to record and document the audio environment, microphones are installed in the pilots’ headsets and in the roof of the cockpit.
The source said that the data of communication between the control tower and the pilot were available with the investigators. Dawn has also learnt that the pilot and control tower communicated with each other for two minutes and 25 seconds.
Two teams are currently investigating the air crash in which 152 people were killed. One of them is headed by Air Commodore Khawaja Abdul Majeed, president of the Civil Aviation Authority’s Safety Investigation Board. It is focussing on human factors, possibility of technical fault and weather conditions.
The second team, headed by Federal Investigation Agency Director General Zafarullah Khan, has been assigned the task of investigating the possibility of ‘sabotage’.
The source said that investigators were trying to determine why the aircraft drifted five nautical miles away from its original route. “The late pilot was very experienced and professional with thousands of flying hours under his belt; hence the fact that the plane strayed five nautical miles from the original route is also a cause for concern for investigators,” he said. The source said that six investigators were yet to hold a joint meeting.
When asked if there was a third voice in the audio recording of the cockpit, CAA director general Air Commodore (retd) Junaid Amin told Dawn: “I am not aware of the presence of a third person in the cockpit… you cannot judge from the audio whether there was a third person….”
No fault in Airblue aircraft
An analysis of the Black Box of the ill-fated Airblue aircraft which crashed on July 28 has revealed that it had no technical fault at the time of the accident.
In intimation to A-320 operators across the world, Airbus said there was no need to update the procedures or make fresh recommendations after the ED 202 crash because all flight systems were working normally before the aircraft slammed into the fog-covered mountains.
All 152 passengers on board were killed.
The advisory was based on a preliminary analysis of flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder by Bureau d’Enquetes et d’Analyses.
A final outcome of the investigation may take months, but preliminary investigations have set the direction for the probe.
According to aviation experts, the Airbus communication implies that technical malfunctioning has been effectively ruled out as the cause of the incident and it is up to the investigation team constituted by the Civil Aviation Authority to determine if the crash occurred because of pilot error, bad weather, control tower fault or any other factor.
The cockpit voice recording readouts have also revealed that the pilots belatedly realised that they were flying into terrain. The first officer of the flight was heard screaming “Sir, pull up, pull up” moments before the crash.
This revelation has been supported by the findings of local investigators which show that before hitting the mountains the aircraft had climbed from 2,600 feet to 3,100 feet. The aircraft was circling for Runway 12, where it was to attempt visual landing.
Sources privy to the investigations believe the pilot got panicked after realising that he was flying into the terrain and had turned the autopilot ‘heading bug’ to the left at more than 180 degrees.
The aircraft, experts say, takes the shortest possible route in such situation and instead of turning left moved towards right.
Why did the aircraft go so close to the hills? Several explanations are being dished out, but the most commonly heard of in the aviation circles say that the pilot while circling for Runway 12 was on Flight Management Computer, but instead of following the prescribed route he had probably created a ‘visual circuit using place bearing distance waypoints’ that put him in the wrong place.
Insertion of place bearing distance waypoints is strictly prohibited by aircraft manufacturers because the Airbus FMC does not have a ‘fix page’ capability, wherein a defined distance can be superimposed on the existing route.
The standard instructions are that any route that is not supported by a ground navigational aid should not be used.
DAWN.COM | Front Page | ?Airblue cockpit had a third person?
By Imran Ali Teepu
Saturday, 28 Aug, 2010
The source said that investigators were trying to determine why the aircraft drifted five nautical miles away from its original route. – Reuters Photo
ISLAMABAD: A team investigating the crash of the ill-fated Airblue jetliner on July 28 in Islamabad has detected the possible presence of a third person in the cockpit. Under normal circumstances, a cockpit is not supposed to have anyone other than the pilot and the co-pilot.
“The investigators have reportedly heard the voice of a third person in the cockpit of the Airblue jetliner,” a source close to the investigation told Dawn on condition of anonymity.
The voice has been extracted from the Cockpit Voice Recorder, according to the source, and the investigators were looking into various possibilities and aspects.
The CVR, which is part of the ‘Black Box’, is a flight recorder used to document the audio environment in the cockpit of an aircraft. In order to record and document the audio environment, microphones are installed in the pilots’ headsets and in the roof of the cockpit.
The source said that the data of communication between the control tower and the pilot were available with the investigators. Dawn has also learnt that the pilot and control tower communicated with each other for two minutes and 25 seconds.
Two teams are currently investigating the air crash in which 152 people were killed. One of them is headed by Air Commodore Khawaja Abdul Majeed, president of the Civil Aviation Authority’s Safety Investigation Board. It is focussing on human factors, possibility of technical fault and weather conditions.
The second team, headed by Federal Investigation Agency Director General Zafarullah Khan, has been assigned the task of investigating the possibility of ‘sabotage’.
The source said that investigators were trying to determine why the aircraft drifted five nautical miles away from its original route. “The late pilot was very experienced and professional with thousands of flying hours under his belt; hence the fact that the plane strayed five nautical miles from the original route is also a cause for concern for investigators,” he said. The source said that six investigators were yet to hold a joint meeting.
When asked if there was a third voice in the audio recording of the cockpit, CAA director general Air Commodore (retd) Junaid Amin told Dawn: “I am not aware of the presence of a third person in the cockpit… you cannot judge from the audio whether there was a third person….”
No fault in Airblue aircraft
An analysis of the Black Box of the ill-fated Airblue aircraft which crashed on July 28 has revealed that it had no technical fault at the time of the accident.
In intimation to A-320 operators across the world, Airbus said there was no need to update the procedures or make fresh recommendations after the ED 202 crash because all flight systems were working normally before the aircraft slammed into the fog-covered mountains.
All 152 passengers on board were killed.
The advisory was based on a preliminary analysis of flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder by Bureau d’Enquetes et d’Analyses.
A final outcome of the investigation may take months, but preliminary investigations have set the direction for the probe.
According to aviation experts, the Airbus communication implies that technical malfunctioning has been effectively ruled out as the cause of the incident and it is up to the investigation team constituted by the Civil Aviation Authority to determine if the crash occurred because of pilot error, bad weather, control tower fault or any other factor.
The cockpit voice recording readouts have also revealed that the pilots belatedly realised that they were flying into terrain. The first officer of the flight was heard screaming “Sir, pull up, pull up” moments before the crash.
This revelation has been supported by the findings of local investigators which show that before hitting the mountains the aircraft had climbed from 2,600 feet to 3,100 feet. The aircraft was circling for Runway 12, where it was to attempt visual landing.
Sources privy to the investigations believe the pilot got panicked after realising that he was flying into the terrain and had turned the autopilot ‘heading bug’ to the left at more than 180 degrees.
The aircraft, experts say, takes the shortest possible route in such situation and instead of turning left moved towards right.
Why did the aircraft go so close to the hills? Several explanations are being dished out, but the most commonly heard of in the aviation circles say that the pilot while circling for Runway 12 was on Flight Management Computer, but instead of following the prescribed route he had probably created a ‘visual circuit using place bearing distance waypoints’ that put him in the wrong place.
Insertion of place bearing distance waypoints is strictly prohibited by aircraft manufacturers because the Airbus FMC does not have a ‘fix page’ capability, wherein a defined distance can be superimposed on the existing route.
The standard instructions are that any route that is not supported by a ground navigational aid should not be used.
DAWN.COM | Front Page | ?Airblue cockpit had a third person?
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Sources privy to the investigations believe the pilot got panicked after realising that he was flying into the terrain and had turned the autopilot ‘heading bug’ to the left at more than 180 degrees.
The aircraft, experts say, takes the shortest possible route in such situation and instead of turning left moved towards right.
The aircraft, experts say, takes the shortest possible route in such situation and instead of turning left moved towards right.
Panicked, stayed on autopilot...
Insertion of place bearing distance waypoints is strictly prohibited by aircraft manufacturers because the Airbus FMC does not have a ‘fix page’ capability, wherein a defined distance can be superimposed on the existing route.
Thanks for the post Fawad.
Best,
GC
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I keep getting this little voice in my head (yes, I know......
) - what with Meekal still going on about a teardrop pattern onto R12 with 'DME' etc and his father being pretty well up in aviation in Pakistan (so he might just know) - suppose there WAS a ('unofficial'/'nod and a wink' from the authority) teardrop onto R12? You could construct a safish 'home-build' at around 2600' on, say, the 310 radial from the VOR to, say, around 9DME, remain clear of terrain and finish up established i/b at around 7DME (about 5nm+ final) which is fine for an approach? Again suppose said Captain (ex PIA we believe) knew of this but set the wrong outbound radial, or 'decided' to fly a 'wider circuit' as, supposedly, the CVR has it? F/O a little spatially confused in grotty weather but eventually the old military 'where am I' instinct breaks through? Might account for the 'lie' - "visual with the runway" (most unlikely) and then "I see the hills".
Plausible? Will anyone admit to it?
PS - To hell with 'Sir, pull-up" etc
PPS I'll step up the tablets tomorrow
) - what with Meekal still going on about a teardrop pattern onto R12 with 'DME' etc and his father being pretty well up in aviation in Pakistan (so he might just know) - suppose there WAS a ('unofficial'/'nod and a wink' from the authority) teardrop onto R12? You could construct a safish 'home-build' at around 2600' on, say, the 310 radial from the VOR to, say, around 9DME, remain clear of terrain and finish up established i/b at around 7DME (about 5nm+ final) which is fine for an approach? Again suppose said Captain (ex PIA we believe) knew of this but set the wrong outbound radial, or 'decided' to fly a 'wider circuit' as, supposedly, the CVR has it? F/O a little spatially confused in grotty weather but eventually the old military 'where am I' instinct breaks through? Might account for the 'lie' - "visual with the runway" (most unlikely) and then "I see the hills".Plausible? Will anyone admit to it?
PS - To hell with 'Sir, pull-up" etc
PPS I'll step up the tablets tomorrow
Originally Posted by DAWN.COM
Insertion of place bearing distance waypoints is strictly prohibited by aircraft manufacturers because the Airbus FMC does not have a ‘fix page’ capability, wherein a defined distance can be superimposed on the existing route.
The current FMC standard for the A319/A320/A321/A330/A340 aircraft permits the use of PBD [Place/Bearing/Distance] and PBX [Place-Bearing/Place-Bearing] entries on the Direct-to and FltPlan pages as well as on Vertical Profile pages, UPDATE AT pages and DATA INDEX pages the latter being the "STORED WAYPOINTS" pages where crew-entered waypoints may be labeled and stored for later use or database waypoints may be called up.
Entries may be place/bearing/distance, place-bearing/place-bearing, lat/long or the crew-entered identifier given to the created waypoint.
The same FMC standard also provides a version of the FIX PAGE which is line-selectable after the 1L FMC key is pressed, (top left key); the menu-item, "FIX INFO" is visible at the 1R key and is selectable; the waypoints must either be database waypoints or those created/named/stored by the crew. The FIX INFO page provides the ability to enter a radial from the selected waypoint. This can provide crossing-radial information as well as "ABEAM" information. The feature is used all the time when cleared direct to somewhere and flight plan waypoints must be retained for ETO and fuel checks.
For obvious reasons, CTL procedures is no place to be messing, heads-down, with FMC waypoint entries by which to conduct a CTL procedure (or define the limits of the circling area). If at all, such entries, including entering the ICAO identifier of Islamabad on the PROG PAGE to maintain awareness of distance from and bearing to the airport in a difficult weather approach, would be made prior to descent and briefed as such. But relying upon waypoints subtlely "permits" thinking to shift from maintaining visual contact with the airport to one of computerized flight in which "safe" is an electronic display instead of a visual one.
One gets the feeling that none of this was briefed at all but the CVR will confirm whether this is the case or not.
The issue here is SA which means not making full use of the map displays and FMC "PROG PAGE" feature, which can display the distance and bearing to any selected waypoint including the DESTINATION airfield.
Turning the HDG knob would not get the aircraft out of this extremely serious circumstance; with autopilot engaged, max bank using the HDG knob is about 20deg.
For emergency bank angles up to 60deg, the autopilot must be disconnected and the aircraft very aggressively hand-flown using all available protections to their limits.
Here, that would mean immediate full back stick/TOGA thrust and perhaps full left stick (to the stops) to bank the aircraft up to 60deg.
The A321 (and all other same-type Airbus aircraft) is fully capable of handling this very aggressive input while protecting the aircraft from stalling or banking beyond 60deg. I strongly suspect that such a response would have cleared the mountains by a substantial margin.
BOAC, re "To hell with 'Sir, pull-up" etc"...fully agree. Regardless of how this crew permitted this situation to occur, the final absence of an aggressive response allowed this CFIT to happen. Why that was the outcome instead of the above-described response is, sadly, the only lesson here.
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The current FMC standard for the A319/A320/A321/A330/A340 aircraft permits the use of PBD [Place/Bearing/Distance] and PBX [Place-Bearing/Place-Bearing] entries on the Direct-to and FltPlan pages as well as on Vertical Profile pages, UPDATE AT pages and DATA INDEX pages the latter being the "STORED WAYPOINTS" pages where crew-entered waypoints may be labeled and stored for later use or database waypoints may be called up.
Nothing new...except possibly for the uninformed
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Airblue down near Islamabad
After reading all these interesting comments by BOAC, PJ2, Fawad etc
Could this air crash of Airblue similar to AA 965 in December 1995, whose cause of accident was ruled as CFIT by investigators, NTSB?
Could this air crash of Airblue similar to AA 965 in December 1995, whose cause of accident was ruled as CFIT by investigators, NTSB?
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Possible?
With all the unrest in the area. This article may contain a nugget or two.. or not, however there are many unanswered questions in this one.
AMERICANS BELIEVED INVOLVED IN PAKISTAN AIR CRASH, HIJACKING | Opinion Maker
AMERICANS BELIEVED INVOLVED IN PAKISTAN AIR CRASH, HIJACKING | Opinion Maker
"Sources indicate that the plane crash was an unsuccessful hijacking attempt intended to crash into the nuclear weapons facility at Kahuta, outside Islamabad. Such an attack may have been blamed on India and would likely have led to retaliation which could easily have escalated to a nuclear exchange between these two nations that have spent decades at each other’s throats.
Suspicions were raised inside Pakistan’s military and intelligence organizations when American military contractors employed by Blackwater/Xe showed up on the scene immediately after the crash, seizing the black box and “other materials.” There is no confirmation that parachutes or electronic equipment had been removed when Blackwater/Xe security relinquished control of the crash scene to Pakistani investigators.
Royal Television in Islamabad, owned by the brother of the head of Pakistan’s powerful JI (Jamate Islami), the Islamic political party, has reported that investigations are underway tying American based contractors to the planning of the attack
Suspicions were raised inside Pakistan’s military and intelligence organizations when American military contractors employed by Blackwater/Xe showed up on the scene immediately after the crash, seizing the black box and “other materials.” There is no confirmation that parachutes or electronic equipment had been removed when Blackwater/Xe security relinquished control of the crash scene to Pakistani investigators.
Royal Television in Islamabad, owned by the brother of the head of Pakistan’s powerful JI (Jamate Islami), the Islamic political party, has reported that investigations are underway tying American based contractors to the planning of the attack
Originally Posted by Robert Campbell
(Your source) Suspicions were raised inside Pakistan’s military and intelligence organizations when American military contractors employed by Blackwater/Xe showed up on the scene immediately after the crash, seizing the black box and “other materials.”
There is no confirmation that parachutes or electronic equipment had been removed when Blackwater/Xe security relinquished control of the crash scene to Pakistani investigators.
There is no confirmation that parachutes or electronic equipment had been removed when Blackwater/Xe security relinquished control of the crash scene to Pakistani investigators.
Mister Campbell, this thread is about a tragic crash that cost the lives of all on board. Some pages ago, had you been keeping up with the thread, it was pointed out that the Pakistani government stated clearly that they had the black boxes in their possession.
It is disappointing to see a screen writer's version of the airplane crash be proposed in a serious tone. I am reminded of a
named Dylan Avery, who attempted to distribute a "documentary" about the aircraft that hit buildings in New York and Washington, DC, as well as in a field in PA, 11 Sptember 2001. You are not keeping good company. If you are taking the piss, and I missed the tone, consider my piss taken.
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Utter BS is the only way we can describe that "news".
"Royal Television in Islamabad, owned by the brother of the head of Pakistan’s powerful JI (Jamate Islami), the Islamic political party, has reported that investigations are underway tying American based contractors to the planning of the attack"
This should be enough to tell everyone this is a piece of bs. I see this as an advancement of the story that "military shot down the plane" and the current floods are controlled by the US using HAARP.
"Royal Television in Islamabad, owned by the brother of the head of Pakistan’s powerful JI (Jamate Islami), the Islamic political party, has reported that investigations are underway tying American based contractors to the planning of the attack"
This should be enough to tell everyone this is a piece of bs. I see this as an advancement of the story that "military shot down the plane" and the current floods are controlled by the US using HAARP.
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Possible?
dvv
Do you believe everything said by governments in that part of the world? Or this part for that matter.
All I did was post a link to a story that I found. I even prefaced it with my doubts.
Now, the story seems to be spreading on the web. Time will tell.
Do you believe everything said by governments in that part of the world? Or this part for that matter.
All I did was post a link to a story that I found. I even prefaced it with my doubts.
Now, the story seems to be spreading on the web. Time will tell.
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Now, the story seems to be spreading on the web. Time will tell.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post5860740
Do you believe everything said by governments in that part of the world? Or this part for that matter.
One needs to be quite credulous, naive even to the point of living a fantasy life, to believe that the black helicopter borne commandos from Blackwater/XE showed up in the nick of time to make off with said black boxes and substitute replacements, just like Hollywood writers explain things in their movies ...
Your post with the quote that asserted the Hollywood script was entitled:
Possible?
Are you "just asking questions" here, Mister Campbell?
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Who Knows?
Blackwater/XE showed up in the nick of time to make off with said black boxes and substitute replacements, just like Hollywood writers explain things in their movies ...
Look, even Rain Man was a member of the Screen Actors' guild -- had to stick to the script, right? 
Diversion ended. Apologies to all.
Diversion ended. Apologies to all.
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flyawaybird:
Do you have some information that the crash of AA 965 was something other than CFIT?
The Colombian aviation authority and the NTSB were in total accord.
After reading all these interesting comments by BOAC, PJ2, Fawad etc
Could this air crash of Airblue similar to AA 965 in December 1995, whose cause of accident was ruled as CFIT by investigators, NTSB?
Could this air crash of Airblue similar to AA 965 in December 1995, whose cause of accident was ruled as CFIT by investigators, NTSB?
The Colombian aviation authority and the NTSB were in total accord.
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As an American, I cop to our volatility in the face of tragedy. We want something sinister and complex, not numptyness. Seventy Percent of Todays Americans do not "Believe" the Warren Report. Pardon the Parochial reference, but silliness does not belong here, imo.
What I am attracted to is not the grief, or loss. I am appreciative of the reference to the 320's capabilities to scurry from impending doom. If in fact this well powered twin can sense terrain (of course it can), and alert the distracted veteran and cause the F/O to raise his voice (but not his hand), why can it not act? Or can it? "Bugger this, my airplane". 60 degree bank heart pounding climb (at a steady two knots above the break), why did she instead fly into the rocks? If we have protections, and most are ok with it, (who doesn't try to mitigate risk in his/her daily actions?), why cannot we add "Manual uncouple" and allow the machine to save the day?
Do I miss something here? (wouldn't be the first time)
bear
What I am attracted to is not the grief, or loss. I am appreciative of the reference to the 320's capabilities to scurry from impending doom. If in fact this well powered twin can sense terrain (of course it can), and alert the distracted veteran and cause the F/O to raise his voice (but not his hand), why can it not act? Or can it? "Bugger this, my airplane". 60 degree bank heart pounding climb (at a steady two knots above the break), why did she instead fly into the rocks? If we have protections, and most are ok with it, (who doesn't try to mitigate risk in his/her daily actions?), why cannot we add "Manual uncouple" and allow the machine to save the day?
Do I miss something here? (wouldn't be the first time)
bear