Airblue down near Islamabad
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Originally Posted by c-c
when mountains or hills are close to the airport.
Beyond your diagnosis of extreme stupidity, is that all you have to offer?
PS Done lots of terrain mapped flying, including using some fairly old-fashioned kit. Know how it works - and know WHEN to use it (and when not to).
A fighter jock co-pilot
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I have had enough of this Crap (hence my callsign!)
I am tired of all the armchair experts.(including you 411A) who all have their expert opinions of areas beyond their proffessional expertise. All your bull**** is subject to any facts or (questionable??) reports.
Unfortuneately, you MUST wait for the official facts.
As for circling approaches, I am going to throw in a huge controversy:
I believe (after flying heavy jet transports for in excess of 35 yrs (probably similar to you 411A) and many circling approaches) that a circling approach in a current jet transport aircraft is an extremely HIGH RISK manoeuvre for which a successful outcome is positive for the EGO of the pilot, but a non-successful outcome can be FATAL to ALL on board. (I do not care whether the criteria is 2nm or 2.3nm.).
I have been a passenger in the back of an aircraft doing a circling approach, and I have resolved never to be in that position again. (I now resort to the internet weather forecasts before boarding the flight.)
Accordingly, in the absence of any risk/benefit analysis, I recommend that any 'circle to land manoeuvres' for JET transports be BANNED. You kids in your Cherokees, Navajos and Glass Cockpit 320s please go ahead and do circling approaches.
BUT I plan to be on the ground when you aces do so.
Please realise that you cannot throw around a transport airplane the way you would like to throw around a Pitts.
Unfortuneately, you MUST wait for the official facts.
As for circling approaches, I am going to throw in a huge controversy:
I believe (after flying heavy jet transports for in excess of 35 yrs (probably similar to you 411A) and many circling approaches) that a circling approach in a current jet transport aircraft is an extremely HIGH RISK manoeuvre for which a successful outcome is positive for the EGO of the pilot, but a non-successful outcome can be FATAL to ALL on board. (I do not care whether the criteria is 2nm or 2.3nm.).
I have been a passenger in the back of an aircraft doing a circling approach, and I have resolved never to be in that position again. (I now resort to the internet weather forecasts before boarding the flight.)
Accordingly, in the absence of any risk/benefit analysis, I recommend that any 'circle to land manoeuvres' for JET transports be BANNED. You kids in your Cherokees, Navajos and Glass Cockpit 320s please go ahead and do circling approaches.
BUT I plan to be on the ground when you aces do so.
Please realise that you cannot throw around a transport airplane the way you would like to throw around a Pitts.
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Please realise that you cannot throw around a transport airplane the way you would like to throw around a Pitts.
Gosh, what an absolute surprise.
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I have difficulty understanding this. Someone please help me. Fighter pilots are in trouble dealing with the complexity of of flying an Airbus?
Not not necessarily in flying, but in programing and supervising the automation. It's not an intelligence question (unless you're talking about a Marine
), it's an experience question in airline workload management. Everybody had some trouble programing the old FMS units when they were new on the equipment. The point is that single pilot fighter experience is very different from CRM transport work. Most all fighter pilots make great airbus drivers in about six months or so imho. But until you knock out at least one season on big iron, you're still in a pretty good learning curve. You're still easily saturated (at least in the third world). Now if you haven't studied the books, because you were somebody's squadron buddy, you can be a real handicap to a new (on the airbus) Captain.Maybe that problem is not widespread. Maybe it only happened to me. I am not indicting fighter jocks; I'm merely pointing out that it was a problem many of us first time captains complained about. The former airline F/O's were sharp and watching a new Captain closely helping him along as a real asset to crew safety, whereas many of the fighter guys were still on the big airplane learning curve. That's life in the cockpit. Don't take it personally.
So I'm not convinced by arguments that the F/O was competent based on his past Fighter Squadron experience. Are we flying Mirage fighters here? No. That type of flying doesn't necessarily make one an asset in a bus.
Remember reporters, all these speculations by us are exactly that. We have nothing to go on without ATC radar tracks, Flight Data Recorders, and Cockpit Voice recorders transcripts.
Fly safe everyone,
CC - out
CC:
To further BOAC's point on hills near the airport ...
Islamabad pakistan - Google Maps
From this Google map of the Islamabad area (when I called it up the legend was 2 miles), you can find the airport and see the hills to the north and northwest. I used the "satellite" choice as it gives an OK presentation of terrain ...
Not sure what your criterion for hills being "near" the airport is, 8-10 miles represents a few minutes flying at approach speed if 170 knots speed is agreed as assumed speed while circling to land on RWY 12 from a RWY 30 istrument approach. (Quite a bit of discussion on the details of that earlier in the thread).
for aterpster:
And since it isn't, one flies the approaches that are available as best one can.
What do you think the odds are "the state" write up that it has contributed to risks in airline safety by parsimony with Navigation Aids ... as the result of its investigation?
To further BOAC's point on hills near the airport ...
Islamabad pakistan - Google Maps
From this Google map of the Islamabad area (when I called it up the legend was 2 miles), you can find the airport and see the hills to the north and northwest. I used the "satellite" choice as it gives an OK presentation of terrain ...
Not sure what your criterion for hills being "near" the airport is, 8-10 miles represents a few minutes flying at approach speed if 170 knots speed is agreed as assumed speed while circling to land on RWY 12 from a RWY 30 istrument approach. (Quite a bit of discussion on the details of that earlier in the thread).
for aterpster:
One that would have been very, very useful would be ODALs for Runway 12. Ah, but that doesn't seem to be the way of this state's aviation authority.
What do you think the odds are "the state" write up that it has contributed to risks in airline safety by parsimony with Navigation Aids ... as the result of its investigation?
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411A
Read my post again.
I was a passenger in a 747 doing a circling approach and the passengers were SCREAMING. After landing with a "successful" outcome, the pilots no doubt thought they had done a great job getting their passengers to their destination. However, I do not think the passengers had paid an entrance fee to Magic Mountain! and I do not think their ticket had qualified them for a roller coaster ride.
Passing an FAA checkride (written for a Convair) does not address passengers REACTION - and passenger reaction determines a succesful airline operation. (not pilot egos)
Read my post again.
I was a passenger in a 747 doing a circling approach and the passengers were SCREAMING. After landing with a "successful" outcome, the pilots no doubt thought they had done a great job getting their passengers to their destination. However, I do not think the passengers had paid an entrance fee to Magic Mountain! and I do not think their ticket had qualified them for a roller coaster ride.
Passing an FAA checkride (written for a Convair) does not address passengers REACTION - and passenger reaction determines a succesful airline operation. (not pilot egos)
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kontorshotell
When I said I was a passenger on that flight, I was actually positioning along with my crew.
This was subject to an investigation by my airline, and therefore I cannot identify the airline involved. (subject of course to the risk of my termination)
When I said I was a passenger on that flight, I was actually positioning along with my crew.
This was subject to an investigation by my airline, and therefore I cannot identify the airline involved. (subject of course to the risk of my termination)
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When I said I was a passenger on that flight, I was actually positioning along with my crew.
This was subject to an investigation by my airline, and therefore I cannot identify the airline involved. (subject of course to the risk of my termination)
This was subject to an investigation by my airline, and therefore I cannot identify the airline involved. (subject of course to the risk of my termination)
Pls explain how you comply with the Flight Safety Foundation Stabilised Approach criteria when you do a circling approach to minima.
This is...stabilized, on speed, by 500aal...this is possible because we are circling at 600aal (or charted higher minimum, whichever is more) in our heavy wide body jet transport airplane, whilst circling, in conformity with laid down regulations.
It the circling maneuver somehow difficult for some?
Of course, it is...unless trained for, properly.
Rocket science it ain't.
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filejw:
Thus, they escape any training on circle to land. And, if the circling MDA is higher than 1,000 feet they use the MDA, again without any training as to the tiny TERPs protected airspace or how close beneath them obstacles may exist.
FYI most US airlines use circling minimums of at least 1000' and 3 miles....
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27 years in Islamabad and scores (well...a slight exaggeration) of circling approaches. No one was screaming -- either in the front or the back!
When I said ban it, I agree I was being reflexive and emotional.
The only thing I take from all this is the self-evident truth that IF you fly it by the book and the numbers, you will be fine.
That did not happen this time and Murphy's Law says that will not happen that one time.
So, is the approach inherently unsafe or were these pilots in a fatal screw-up?
CC, I do see your point about the fighter-jock. He had 300 hours on the A321. First flight or second on the line and he has to cope with -- not an unsafe procedure per se -- a very challenging approach in marginal weather with strong winds. He must have been overwhelmed and on that very steep learning curve and as someone suggested he must have been looking down fiddling with his FMGS -- and therefore of no help to his captain.
I have known many jocks and their skills coming from the PAF onto PIA flying are good but variable. Mind you there are many who were great in the PAF and our PAF pilots are highly rated.
The question is whether they make good commercial pilots. Some do. Some never quite get the hang of it.
There was this one guy who really terrified me.
Coming in to land at AMS from the south he kept saying "he is bringing us in from the north" as if to enlighten me.
Talk of spatial/situational unawareness.
When I asked if he wanted the automatics on for the ILS he said "no, I failed my last check-ride", or something to that effect. He was all over the place, weaving back and forth, hand-flying and the controller asked us "Pakistan XXX, are you established"?
All I could say was "Sir, we are establishing right now".
Well, his actual touch-down was featherlight with no excessive flare and probably the best I have experienced!
So, as the American's say, "Go figure".
The next sector to Heathrow was better since he was the PNF. He only admonished me with "Not more than 15 degrees, BOY!" as I rotated on TO.
As for the gentleman who wants a valium, methinks you are too harsh on your comrades. This is what we do here. We ask and we speculate to be sure -- but responsibly I hope -- in the absence of solid evidence to the contrary.
Reticent Mikal
When I said ban it, I agree I was being reflexive and emotional.
The only thing I take from all this is the self-evident truth that IF you fly it by the book and the numbers, you will be fine.
That did not happen this time and Murphy's Law says that will not happen that one time.
So, is the approach inherently unsafe or were these pilots in a fatal screw-up?
CC, I do see your point about the fighter-jock. He had 300 hours on the A321. First flight or second on the line and he has to cope with -- not an unsafe procedure per se -- a very challenging approach in marginal weather with strong winds. He must have been overwhelmed and on that very steep learning curve and as someone suggested he must have been looking down fiddling with his FMGS -- and therefore of no help to his captain.
I have known many jocks and their skills coming from the PAF onto PIA flying are good but variable. Mind you there are many who were great in the PAF and our PAF pilots are highly rated.
The question is whether they make good commercial pilots. Some do. Some never quite get the hang of it.
There was this one guy who really terrified me.
Coming in to land at AMS from the south he kept saying "he is bringing us in from the north" as if to enlighten me.
Talk of spatial/situational unawareness.
When I asked if he wanted the automatics on for the ILS he said "no, I failed my last check-ride", or something to that effect. He was all over the place, weaving back and forth, hand-flying and the controller asked us "Pakistan XXX, are you established"?
All I could say was "Sir, we are establishing right now".
Well, his actual touch-down was featherlight with no excessive flare and probably the best I have experienced!
So, as the American's say, "Go figure".
The next sector to Heathrow was better since he was the PNF. He only admonished me with "Not more than 15 degrees, BOY!" as I rotated on TO.
As for the gentleman who wants a valium, methinks you are too harsh on your comrades. This is what we do here. We ask and we speculate to be sure -- but responsibly I hope -- in the absence of solid evidence to the contrary.
Reticent Mikal
Originally Posted by Reticent Meekal
CC, I do see your point about the fighter-jock. He had 300 hours on the A321. First flight or second on the line and he has to cope with -- not an unsafe procedure per se -- a very challenging approach in marginal weather with strong winds. He must have been overwhelmed and on that very steep learning curve and as someone suggested he must have been looking down fiddling with his FMGS -- and therefore of no help to his captain.
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Originally Posted by Reticent
Coming in to land at AMS from the south he kept saying "he is bringing us in from the north" as if to enlighten me.
Talk of spatial/situational unawareness.
When I asked if he wanted the automatics on for the ILS he said "no, I failed my last check-ride", or something to that effect. He was all over the place, weaving back and forth, hand-flying and the controller asked us "Pakistan XXX, are you established"?
All I could say was "Sir, we are establishing right now".
Talk of spatial/situational unawareness.
When I asked if he wanted the automatics on for the ILS he said "no, I failed my last check-ride", or something to that effect. He was all over the place, weaving back and forth, hand-flying and the controller asked us "Pakistan XXX, are you established"?
All I could say was "Sir, we are establishing right now".
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Doing hundreds of circle to land approaches in the mountains in Honduras over many years have never had one approach questionable. I don't know why they continued to fly out of their protected airspace and fly into the hills. My flights were mostly in a B757 so close to the same size aircraft. Unless they were too high and trying to lose altitude there was no reason to be over 7 miles on base leg. We need the CVR to find the answer to this one.
Last edited by p51guy; 5th Aug 2010 at 21:50. Reason: spelling
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411A, well, let's see… To stay within 2sm from the runway, not exceed 20° in bank and not overshoot the centerline in base/final, one has to maintain the ground speed at no more than 143kt and do a descending turn all the way to the touchdown zone… Well, I guess it's not that hard for you in your heavy wide body jet transport airplane.