Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
Ut Sementem Feeceris
- in fact it's known that the FINAL APP mode won't capture on most line selected RNV approaches unless you are at platform on these aircraft..
If you look at the coding for a typical RNAV approach, which should always be checked against the published procedure for accuracy to ensure "the box" does what the the plate tells you should be doing, below the platform line i.e. FD09 there will be the final approach flight path angle i.e. -3.1°.
If you are not at platform, how can the box sequence the command to descend?
Modern FMS / autopilot systems are very reliable - provided they are operated correctly. We've all heard of automation complacency, mode error etc. Coupled NPA/RNAV/GNSS/Managed approaches are still relatively new and it is encumbent upon every pilot who operates a modern type to ensure they fully understand how their particular ship goes about flying these approaches. Sounds obvious but there is still confusion out there.
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qsyenroute -
.....there was a shameful lack of precision nav aids.
In the 21st Century it is unforgivable that accidents like this should continue to happen. Especially at a capital city international airport due to inadequate landing aids.
.....there was a shameful lack of precision nav aids.
In the 21st Century it is unforgivable that accidents like this should continue to happen. Especially at a capital city international airport due to inadequate landing aids.
My only comment is if you don't see the runway/airport at minimums, simple; go around. Nothing wrong with non-precision approaches that a little training can't take care of.
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Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
INFO from AviationSafetyNetwork:
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3Registration: 5A-ONG
C/n / msn: 1024
First flight: 2009-08-12 (9 months)
Total airframe hrs: 1600
Cycles: 420
Engines: 2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
A very new A/C indeed.
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
INFO from AviationSafetyNetwork:
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3Registration: 5A-ONG
C/n / msn: 1024
First flight: 2009-08-12 (9 months)
Total airframe hrs: 1600
Cycles: 420
Engines: 2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
A very new A/C indeed.
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DC-ATE:
My only comment is if you don't see the runway/airport at minimums, simple; go around. Nothing wrong with non-precision approaches that a little training can't take care of.
Depends upon the non-precision approach and the runway environment.
1. Is the approach guidance provided by a laterally precise landing aid, such as an LOC, LDA, or RNAV; or is it provided by VOR or NDB?
2. Is the lateral guidance aligned with the runway or is it offset, perhaps by as much as 30 degrees?
3. Is there a stepdown fix (or perhaps 2 or 3) in the final approach segment?
4. Does the runway have VGSI, or is the visual segment a black (night) grey (day) hole?
5. Is the operator's procedure to fly a constant descent angle or dive-and-drive?
6. Are the authorized visibility minimums sufficiently low that during minimum visibility conditions visual cues are progressive and marginal?
None of these 6 questions need be asked of an unrestricted ILS or properly designed LNAV/VNAV approach procedure. And, in the U.S. we now have the marvel of LPV operating on more runway ends than ILS.
Finally, RNP AR is fantastic, but the equipage and database validation/maintenance requirements set the bar way too high for many fleets.
And to many others that have commented on non-precision approaches here-
My only comment is if you don't see the runway/airport at minimums, simple; go around. Nothing wrong with non-precision approaches that a little training can't take care of.
1. Is the approach guidance provided by a laterally precise landing aid, such as an LOC, LDA, or RNAV; or is it provided by VOR or NDB?
2. Is the lateral guidance aligned with the runway or is it offset, perhaps by as much as 30 degrees?
3. Is there a stepdown fix (or perhaps 2 or 3) in the final approach segment?
4. Does the runway have VGSI, or is the visual segment a black (night) grey (day) hole?
5. Is the operator's procedure to fly a constant descent angle or dive-and-drive?
6. Are the authorized visibility minimums sufficiently low that during minimum visibility conditions visual cues are progressive and marginal?
None of these 6 questions need be asked of an unrestricted ILS or properly designed LNAV/VNAV approach procedure. And, in the U.S. we now have the marvel of LPV operating on more runway ends than ILS.
Finally, RNP AR is fantastic, but the equipage and database validation/maintenance requirements set the bar way too high for many fleets.
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Am I the only one who finds it odd that whenever there is a major news story from that region of the planet, there are nearly always huge delays in getting even a semi-accurate sketch of what happened out to the media?
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aterpster -
Ya.....all your modern aids/facilities are nice when they're working, aren't they? Problem is today's pilots seem to have forgotten how to fly without all this stuff. Again.....if you can't see to land, you don't land. Pretty simple.
Now, if there were other problems associated with this particular flight, we'll just have to wait and see.
Ya.....all your modern aids/facilities are nice when they're working, aren't they? Problem is today's pilots seem to have forgotten how to fly without all this stuff. Again.....if you can't see to land, you don't land. Pretty simple.
Now, if there were other problems associated with this particular flight, we'll just have to wait and see.
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Heard today that this was the same aircraft that was knocked out of action in Joburg a couple of weeks ago. 8U flights were cancelled for days apparently as a result of a bird strike, they ended up sending an A320 down to pick up stranded pax, local agents were fuming as could only move a fraction of the pax who were stuck - saw the aircraft myself in the SAA Technical hangar - can anyone confirm this.
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henryarundel, no that was not the same aircraft.....
Afriqiyah SOP's do not allow for a "managed" NPA as they don't yet have approval from the LYCAA the same is true for Libyan Airlines in "their" 320's (Actually none of the Libyan A320's are 5A registered and are on another none Libyan AOC)
As of last week the VASI was not working on R/W 09 and there were several outages (not NOTAM'd) of all of the NDB stations which form the 09 approach.
Were the crew flying the approach from the database? I hope all crews flying in Libya are flying from the "box" as none of the ground equipment can be trusted in Libya, Tripoli HLLT is one of the few airports in Libya where the charts do not carry the warning that the procedure is on an experimental basis.
ATC at Tripoli lack a basic understanding of what they are doing... almost every single clearance they give over the radio is wrong and far from standard.
TCAS RA's are an almost daily event, in what is a light traffic airport.
Was any of this a factor... who knows.. but it is an accident waiting to happen... National pride in Libya needs to take a sidestep while some proper standards are forced upon them - if they refuse to accept it then they should join the rest of the African countries on the BAN list.
Afriqiyah SOP's do not allow for a "managed" NPA as they don't yet have approval from the LYCAA the same is true for Libyan Airlines in "their" 320's (Actually none of the Libyan A320's are 5A registered and are on another none Libyan AOC)
As of last week the VASI was not working on R/W 09 and there were several outages (not NOTAM'd) of all of the NDB stations which form the 09 approach.
Were the crew flying the approach from the database? I hope all crews flying in Libya are flying from the "box" as none of the ground equipment can be trusted in Libya, Tripoli HLLT is one of the few airports in Libya where the charts do not carry the warning that the procedure is on an experimental basis.
ATC at Tripoli lack a basic understanding of what they are doing... almost every single clearance they give over the radio is wrong and far from standard.
TCAS RA's are an almost daily event, in what is a light traffic airport.
Was any of this a factor... who knows.. but it is an accident waiting to happen... National pride in Libya needs to take a sidestep while some proper standards are forced upon them - if they refuse to accept it then they should join the rest of the African countries on the BAN list.
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Flymecpt, I can confirm that this did happen... that a crew flew an aircraft to Jo,burg after a known birdstrike on departure from HLLT.
I'm not sure of the top of my head which aircraft it was... however it is a choice of two.. as at the time ONF was not flying due to the missing winglet and had not been given the all clear.
PT6A
I'm not sure of the top of my head which aircraft it was... however it is a choice of two.. as at the time ONF was not flying due to the missing winglet and had not been given the all clear.
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NOTAM's
ROI1900D, here are the NOTAM's they have all be in force for the last few months.
Airport HLLT - TIP - TRIPOLI INTL:
A0033/10 NOTAMR A0032/10
Q) HLLL/QNVLF/IV/BO/AE/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1002211047 C) 1005151030
E) TRIPOLI VOR TPI FREQ 114.5 MHZ INTERFERENCE FROM SIGNAL BEING
EXPERIENCED DURING CURRENT AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT WORK (VOR SHOULD BE
USED WITH CAUTION)
A0046/10 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QFALC/IV/B/A/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1003302100 C) 1010260400
D) MAR 30-OCT 26 2100-0400
E) AD CLOSED
A0061/10 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QMPLC/IV/BO/A/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1003300710 C) PERM
E) STAND 14 CLOSED DUE TO WIP.
A69/09 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QMXLC/IV/M/A/0/999/
A) HLLT B) 0906101219 C) PERM
E) TWY(Y)CLOSED
A115/09 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QOBCE/IV/M/A/0/999/
A) HLLT B) 0910081014 C) PERM
E) DUE TO WIP NORTH MIDDLE OF RWY 09/27 CRANES ARE ERECTED AS THE FLW:
CRANE COORD HIGT/MSL
TC1 324011.30274N0130857.95222E 129.113M
TC2 324014.06655N0130858.55325E 120.897M
TC3 324010.70549N0130854.71021E 124.799M
TC4 324013.19879N0130855.63737E 135.300M
TC5 324015.96004N0130856.23092E 129.400M
TC6 324012.59968N0130852.39289E 129.700M
TC7 324015.09433N0130853.31757E 121.600M
TCT 324002.99146N0130919.33498E 167.070M
Airport HLLT - TIP - TRIPOLI INTL:
A0033/10 NOTAMR A0032/10
Q) HLLL/QNVLF/IV/BO/AE/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1002211047 C) 1005151030
E) TRIPOLI VOR TPI FREQ 114.5 MHZ INTERFERENCE FROM SIGNAL BEING
EXPERIENCED DURING CURRENT AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT WORK (VOR SHOULD BE
USED WITH CAUTION)
A0046/10 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QFALC/IV/B/A/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1003302100 C) 1010260400
D) MAR 30-OCT 26 2100-0400
E) AD CLOSED
A0061/10 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QMPLC/IV/BO/A/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1003300710 C) PERM
E) STAND 14 CLOSED DUE TO WIP.
A69/09 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QMXLC/IV/M/A/0/999/
A) HLLT B) 0906101219 C) PERM
E) TWY(Y)CLOSED
A115/09 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QOBCE/IV/M/A/0/999/
A) HLLT B) 0910081014 C) PERM
E) DUE TO WIP NORTH MIDDLE OF RWY 09/27 CRANES ARE ERECTED AS THE FLW:
CRANE COORD HIGT/MSL
TC1 324011.30274N0130857.95222E 129.113M
TC2 324014.06655N0130858.55325E 120.897M
TC3 324010.70549N0130854.71021E 124.799M
TC4 324013.19879N0130855.63737E 135.300M
TC5 324015.96004N0130856.23092E 129.400M
TC6 324012.59968N0130852.39289E 129.700M
TC7 324015.09433N0130853.31757E 121.600M
TCT 324002.99146N0130919.33498E 167.070M
Person Of Interest
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Well, I made it thru pg 3 of this thread, so my apologies if what I'm about to say it already covered, but here it is:
Most of you folks need to grow up...It's AFRICA for heavens sake...if you can't fly a non-precision approach you shouldn't be flying in the Left Seat, let alone AFRICA!!!
Remember the USAF 737 crew that killed Secretary Ron Brown???
AFRICA is not for the faint of heart and Tripoli is no different from Tunis, Algirs, D'Menija, or many other places...
Airbus Auto-Bu@@s@itSystems will never take over for basic pilot skills...
Learn to fly or stay in your automated EU World...or stick to major hubs in the USA where you can be "hand fed" by ATC....
Most of you folks need to grow up...It's AFRICA for heavens sake...if you can't fly a non-precision approach you shouldn't be flying in the Left Seat, let alone AFRICA!!!
Remember the USAF 737 crew that killed Secretary Ron Brown???
AFRICA is not for the faint of heart and Tripoli is no different from Tunis, Algirs, D'Menija, or many other places...
Airbus Auto-Bu@@s@itSystems will never take over for basic pilot skills...
Learn to fly or stay in your automated EU World...or stick to major hubs in the USA where you can be "hand fed" by ATC....
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One passenger wrote on PPRuNe...
Hi all,
my first post ever in PPrune is the try to hinder a myth growing...if it is not too late now!
Yes, there was a passenger on an Air Afriqiyah A330 and he did post on PPrune! He did so because he had missed the left side winglet on his flight. His forum name is Three Mile Final., his posting was from the 4th of may and the thread was moved now to the Tech Log.
Following the idea of gabona stick, i tend to assume, that someone in the media got it wrong and reported "wing inlet" for winglet, not knowing what was spoken of at all and mixing up two different issues.
For me sure it was a little surprise to learn from that thread, that it is no problem for buses to go with only one winglet.
Best regards!
minimum clean
my first post ever in PPrune is the try to hinder a myth growing...if it is not too late now!
Yes, there was a passenger on an Air Afriqiyah A330 and he did post on PPrune! He did so because he had missed the left side winglet on his flight. His forum name is Three Mile Final., his posting was from the 4th of may and the thread was moved now to the Tech Log.
Following the idea of gabona stick, i tend to assume, that someone in the media got it wrong and reported "wing inlet" for winglet, not knowing what was spoken of at all and mixing up two different issues.
For me sure it was a little surprise to learn from that thread, that it is no problem for buses to go with only one winglet.
Best regards!
minimum clean
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DownIn3Green,
It was a "local" crew... and the systems at HLLT were not working correctly... so unless they flew it from the BOX with all that auto bulsh!t you speak of then they were trusting blind faith!
Saying that it is Africa is no excuse.. they are REQUIRED to meet ICAO standards....
Do you think that the pax, most of which European understood that they stand a far greater chance of being in harms way? Just because it is Africa...
A STOP needs to be put to this fly by night attitude that still exists in that part of the world... not by all but by many including many CAA's
PT6A
It was a "local" crew... and the systems at HLLT were not working correctly... so unless they flew it from the BOX with all that auto bulsh!t you speak of then they were trusting blind faith!
Saying that it is Africa is no excuse.. they are REQUIRED to meet ICAO standards....
Do you think that the pax, most of which European understood that they stand a far greater chance of being in harms way? Just because it is Africa...
A STOP needs to be put to this fly by night attitude that still exists in that part of the world... not by all but by many including many CAA's
PT6A
Paxing All Over The World
PT6A
It's not an excuse, it's an explanation and, of course they are required to meet ICAO standards but, have you never heard of the phrase 'an African solution'?
I speak as one who lived in Africa for ten years and has had family there for 40 years and one of my close relatives is current RHS and has had his ATPL for 13 years. Yes this is grim but, Yes this is Africa.
Saying that it is Africa is no excuse.. they are REQUIRED to meet ICAO standards....
I speak as one who lived in Africa for ten years and has had family there for 40 years and one of my close relatives is current RHS and has had his ATPL for 13 years. Yes this is grim but, Yes this is Africa.
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Downin3green, as far as I remember, LDDU, where Ron Brown crashed, is still in Europe, the NDB approach that was in use at the time notwithstanding.
And as for the Airbus "automation-bull****", I agree with you - the Bus or the Boeing, the Fokker or the Embraer - no excuse for not knowing how to fly a non-precision approach, with or without the automation. However, as many have said before - when in doubt: go around.
And as for the Airbus "automation-bull****", I agree with you - the Bus or the Boeing, the Fokker or the Embraer - no excuse for not knowing how to fly a non-precision approach, with or without the automation. However, as many have said before - when in doubt: go around.