Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash

[downwindabeam]

Taking your approach RadAlt, you make it seem automation should be trusted and used more than the human brain. Why use pilots in the first place?

I suggest we put ILSes in all airports and provide RNAV-to-ILS automatic change and just man airplanes with computers.

No mistakes will be made then.

I agree that no matter how bad the airport is, flying an A330 into the ground in day vmc half a mile from the airport after a 9 hour flight is not something I can understand unless something mechanically went seriously wrong.

[Mister Geezer]

Thank you PT6, you have hit the nail on the head! ICAO and IATA seem to turn a blind eye to African airports that dont meet standards. This is as much the international aviation organisations' fault as it is the Libyan CAA if someone is looking for a scapegoat. I think there needs to be a big shakeup in the inspection standards and enforcement by these agencies that leaves no space for ambiguity. No airport should be the weakest link in the transport chain.rt to

I am sorry but the LCAA know fine well what the standards are. It is just that they do not wish to adhere to them. Corruption is rife in the LCAA so it is little wonder that we see a wealthy country with such a crumbling aviation infrastructure.

I recently read that Libyan Airlines are going to equip their new A330s with onboard wireless internet for their pax. Yet the LCAA can't fix the DME and the NDB at Kufra which have been out for years? Both are Government organisations so like is being compared with like.

I know people have slated ATC but on the whole I feel sorry for them. ATCOs work with the risk of being escorted to the nearest Police Station by the Jamahiriya's finest, should an incident occur! I flew with one Libyan who used to be an ATCO and he said to me that he was frogmarched off his scope whilst still controlling one day, by two policeman after an incident took place which was not his fault. ATCOs in Libya are always guilty until proven innocent and that is often why they sound like a bag of nerves when there are more than a few aircraft on the frequency. There are only a few really switched on controllers in Libya. One chap in Tripoli Tower springs to mind and a couple of the senior guys in Benghazi Area that trained at Bournemouth are still around and they are always comforting to hear in the dark of night!!! However newer controllers are simply not given the training they need. Radar skills are poor with speed control or tactical vectoring never being used. One of my pet hates was being told to expedite my take off when the landing aircraft is no factor whatsoever. When asked if I am expecting any delay whilst sat on the runway I eventaully found that a 'Negative - Inshallah' normally made them keep quiet. If my checks take longer then press the PTT switch and have a word with Allah and not me... since he has decided that I need to complete the checklist in its entirety!!!

[RadAlt2010]

I said nothing of the sort Downwind. I said an ILS in THIS case would have saved the day. You cant argue with that no matter how hard you try. Few airline pilots these days fly manual approaches and an ILS on all runways should be made mandatory in all major international airports.

[RadAlt2010]

That is very true Mister Geezer, but ICAO should raise the bar and insist on precise safety standards or blacklist the country. Any leeway by ICAO is seen as a relaxation. ICAO should SET the standards. Anyway, I am sure you will now see a huge improvement in aviation safety standards by the LYCAA and the installation of latest hardware at HLLT and HLLB now that Mr Seif Gaddaffi is involved. This accident is probably a wakeup call for the Libyan embargo-dazed beureaucracy.

[411A]

Few airline pilots these days fly manual approaches and an ILS on all runways should be made mandatory in all major international airports.

Speak for yourself.
We complete manual and/or visual approaches all the time in our heavy jet...and, just for your information, so do many other pilots in other airlines, especially in the USA.

IF, on the other hand, you personally, RadAlt2010, cannot do so, I suspect you had better find a desk job.
Without a doubt, the new 'slaves to the magenta line' have a distinct disadvantage.

[Mister Geezer]

What about digging up the ILS at Sebha that always worked when I used it and moving it to Tripoli. After all the ILS at Sebha is configured to a runway that is no longer in use and it is still a published procedure that is used by ATC!!!

[RadAlt2010]

411A, I can fly manual approaches and, like you, have to pass my line checks. I have no intention of looking for a desk job. But pilots are human and they DO make mistakes. All I am saying is, anything that enhances safety cannot be unwelcome. Now if you dont agree with that, may I respectfully suggest that YOU look for a desk job.

[fullforward]

411A

Fully agree with you!

[RadAlt2010]

OK 4PW, we blame the pilot and do NOTHING about the rest of the farce. Hello? What planet are you on? No one said the pilot is not to blame. Of course he should have not busted his minimas. But his fault should not be looked at in isolation. If you know anything about flight safety, you should know that accidents are a CHAIN of events. The only way to learn from this and prevent a recurrence is to make every link in the chain stronger.

My guess is that the pilot was flying an NDB/VOR appraoch with a faulty off-centreline signal due to nearby cranes that was Notamed . The sun obscured his sighting of the runway. He discovered too late visually that he was not aligned. Paniced and went below his MDA. Not very professional/excuable but also very possible in fatigue. Now wouldnt you agree that an ILS would have prevented all this? I would like to hear your argument

[TowerDog]

But his fault should not be looked at in isolation.

I think it should.

As pilots we fly into many airports with less than perfect WX, ATC, Nav aids and ground support, happens all the time, but that is not an excuse to fly a brand new jet into the ground like a student pilot on his first solo..

[GarageYears]

411A, I can fly manual approaches and, like you, have to pass my line checks. I have no intention of looking for a desk job. But pilots are human and they DO make mistakes. All I am saying is, anything that enhances safety cannot be unwelcome. Now if you dont agree with that, may I respectfully suggest that YOU look for a desk job.

It's a good job machines never go wrong isn't it? All this b/s rankles me - basic flying skills - if you can't hand-fly the aircraft, don't fly it at all. If you blindly trust the automation, don't fly. Automation is an aid, not a means to an end - 'nuff said.

RadAlt2010 - I'm not disagreeing with you w.r.t. the ICAO stepping in and insisting on improvements all round, and suspect we'll see an ILS at this airport p.d.q. but it's easy to bolt the door after the horse... in my opinion the ICAO should be there before the damn door opens.

- GY

[Capn Bloggs]

A probationary poster telling the world how to run a flight ops department.

His number of posts has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of his argument, Mr Thrust You Can't Trust.

RadAlt, you're talking sense. Keep it up.

[RadAlt2010]

Yes 'nuff said Garage. I never suggested stick it on auto, fold your arms and go to sleep. You are not talking to a PPL. I have been flying airliners for 30 years. An auto approach is always more comfortable for passengers, but must be supervised; every second of it. It doesnt mean I forgot how to fly an appraoch either.

I agree with you entirely that ICAO should wake up and smell the coffee.

[lomapaseo]

RadAlt2010

I agree with you entirely that ICAO should wake up and smell the coffee.

Please explain how ICAO is to blame and how they could fix their mistake.

Last I knew they provide recommendations only to governments, willing to listen and it's up to the governments to accept or reject.

Of course at this point we have no proof that there is a link between ICAOs recommendations, a failure to act, and this accident.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

IF the tail scenario (tail separated first) is confirmed (and will be confirmed by the following) .. it will be lack of infos about the last second(s) of the crash as not recorded by the black boxes

[onetrack]

RadAlt2010 - Now let me get this right. Around 100 pax trusted a PIC to be fully competent and conversant with his aeroplane, the principles of its operation, and all of the associated air control systems.
He was trusted to be tested and competent in his ability to handle virtually ANY problem that arose with his aircraft... or any problems associated with takeoffs and landings, or diversions, if need be.

It now appears, from evidence personally viewed by C-SAR, that this pilot was not competent. He flew a perfectly good, near-new plane into the ground, thus wiping out over 100 innocent people.

Now you are trying to say that unless the latest and up-to-date landing aids aren't installed, this event will continue to happen. I don't buy that.
There are any number of competent pilots who take off and land, handle serious problems, diversions, and less-than-totally satisfactory airport/runway conditions, EVERY DAY... without flying their plane into the ground, and wiping out large numbers of innocent people.

The bottom line, is this Afriqiyah PIC showed incompetence at worst, and a gung-ho attitude at best. There should be no place for pilots in passenger-carrying activities, that demonstrate these lack of skills, or who demonstrate risk-taking attitudes.

Yes, there were any number of factors in this event that made it a less-than-satisfactory landing event... but none that couldn't have been handled with a satisfactory outcome, by a PIC demonstrating competence in airmanship skills... that are demonstrated by P'sIC 100 times a day, worldwide.

[Capn Bloggs]

There should be no place for pilots in passenger-carrying activities, that demonstrate these lack of skills

So why are there?

[PJ2]

onetrack;

Good handle.

[gtro]

Sad to say but it looks like ONETRACK is right. For whatever reason this PIC has messed up real bad and has unfortunately taken with him the life of over 100 passengers.

[a.carneiro]

Whoa

We seem to be working on a foregone conclusion that this was pilot error.

I have been following this thread with interest from the start but I think we need to step back, take a breath and remember once again that we're only working with speculation.

Granted, mostly well informed and well thought out speculation, but speculation nonetheless.

We have very little hard data and certainly none which is official so let's wait for that before making condemning statements.

And back I go to lurch in the shadows

Wishing you all, every one of you, a happy and safe week


André