AA crew fed up with JFK ATC - declares emergency.
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So I guess Ireland was there in the cockpit with them and knows exactly what was going on then. Since he is so adamant on firing the pilots who exercised their emergency authority he must have been there.
If not, then I suggest you move onto your next trolling duty.
If not, then I suggest you move onto your next trolling duty.
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The closed runway may have been undergoing significant repairs - the approaching pilots certainly did not know its state at the time of requesting it. Further, injuries to ground personel could have resulted as im sure they were quickly hussled off the runway.
Frankly, they should be ****** out the door and fired for this. What they did was potentially very dangerous.
Frankly, they should be ****** out the door and fired for this. What they did was potentially very dangerous.
It is difficult to take your comments seriously when you get one of the two available facts wrong.
Not reading the full thread before posting is stupid and insulting to the rest of the readers/contributors.
Frankly, you should have your posting rights removed. What you did was potentially very irritating.
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jrmyl - If you are referring to a fuel shortage issue than this further underscrores the crews incompetence. This forum is not about massaging the ego's of flight crews (please read nugpot). The sheer arogance in that mans voice was disturbing to say the least. Nothing on that tape indicates the nature of the "emergency".
If he did not feel comfortable about performing a cross wind landing than he should at least have the decency to raise this point for additional training in his next sim session, rather than removing his frustrations on already hard working and stretched ATC. AA002 was not the only aircraft on an approach to runway 22 that day - how could all the other airlines manage it ?
Again I stress, this forum is not a ego massaging forum for flight crew. If he is not up to the job than than lets just get that clear, rather than taking his anger out on ATC.
If he did not feel comfortable about performing a cross wind landing than he should at least have the decency to raise this point for additional training in his next sim session, rather than removing his frustrations on already hard working and stretched ATC. AA002 was not the only aircraft on an approach to runway 22 that day - how could all the other airlines manage it ?
Again I stress, this forum is not a ego massaging forum for flight crew. If he is not up to the job than than lets just get that clear, rather than taking his anger out on ATC.
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why Wilyflier - what is your problem exactly ? Maybe you can pm me on it ? I dont think its reasonable to remove someone who has a different opinion to you, do you think thats fair ? Dont you realise that the actions of the crew was potentially very dangerous ?
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one more from me--
again, i am dismayed at the assumptive attitudes of the posters on this thread against the pilot and the ATC involved in this event and after reading more replies today, i sense a return of the British/Irish/Europeans looking down at the Americans again.
yes, some of the American culture is a bit 'cowboy-ish'
but like all things, it is good at some times and bad at others.
on the other hand, an emphasis on procedures is good at times and bad at others.
being humans, we find it difficult at times to know what is best at times, especially pressing times of short duration.
yes the British RT is more proper most of the times-but it would be interesting to compare the volumes of traffic into the different areas-i have flown into LHR,LGW,STN,MAN and all the major airports in Europe since 1998 to present and i have never heard anything that comes close to what i heard in DFW, ATL, LAX, SFO, and the entire New York area even back in 1995-96. at times Approach control was simply a 'broadcast' of instructions--no time for any readbacks at all-and even when there is time for readbacks, it evolved into an abbreviated english-by necessity.
after listening to the tape again, what strikes me is the suddeness of the change! after checking in with approach, AA's heart beat must have dropped a bit from max, thinking they're on the last stretch-almost home-perhaps after some time of redline bpm on earlier segments of the approach-then suddenly they are told the wind had increased and yes, we can tell by the RT that they were back at redline and perhaps going above--the spare mental capacity had suddenly reduced and they sound as if they were having to think and speak at the same time--
i am convinced that both the pilot and the controller--upon reflection could see ways that both could have done better-but i would also wager that they would buy each other beers and shake hands at the local as well. and both will be better at what they both do from here on out. no terminations should be given!
i am american born and a british citizen and it cuts me very deep when i hear any one imply that americans are in any way lower than the british or visa versa--
on any subject--from friendly fire in the current fighting in the sand pits to the New York RT, the yanks and the brits/poms/irish/europeans have had their glorious moments and complete bollocks perhaps in the same percentage ratio-
and before making conclusions upon any of the incidents--only the people who were actually there (right there!!!) -and survive (key word) should have any real say in any 'sentencing'
the rest of us should simply listen and learn!
something that hasn't been mentioned yet--i suspect only in America would any one have such free access to the tapes!!!!
cheers;
yes, some of the American culture is a bit 'cowboy-ish'
but like all things, it is good at some times and bad at others.
on the other hand, an emphasis on procedures is good at times and bad at others.
being humans, we find it difficult at times to know what is best at times, especially pressing times of short duration.
yes the British RT is more proper most of the times-but it would be interesting to compare the volumes of traffic into the different areas-i have flown into LHR,LGW,STN,MAN and all the major airports in Europe since 1998 to present and i have never heard anything that comes close to what i heard in DFW, ATL, LAX, SFO, and the entire New York area even back in 1995-96. at times Approach control was simply a 'broadcast' of instructions--no time for any readbacks at all-and even when there is time for readbacks, it evolved into an abbreviated english-by necessity.
after listening to the tape again, what strikes me is the suddeness of the change! after checking in with approach, AA's heart beat must have dropped a bit from max, thinking they're on the last stretch-almost home-perhaps after some time of redline bpm on earlier segments of the approach-then suddenly they are told the wind had increased and yes, we can tell by the RT that they were back at redline and perhaps going above--the spare mental capacity had suddenly reduced and they sound as if they were having to think and speak at the same time--
i am convinced that both the pilot and the controller--upon reflection could see ways that both could have done better-but i would also wager that they would buy each other beers and shake hands at the local as well. and both will be better at what they both do from here on out. no terminations should be given!
i am american born and a british citizen and it cuts me very deep when i hear any one imply that americans are in any way lower than the british or visa versa--
on any subject--from friendly fire in the current fighting in the sand pits to the New York RT, the yanks and the brits/poms/irish/europeans have had their glorious moments and complete bollocks perhaps in the same percentage ratio-
and before making conclusions upon any of the incidents--only the people who were actually there (right there!!!) -and survive (key word) should have any real say in any 'sentencing'
the rest of us should simply listen and learn!
something that hasn't been mentioned yet--i suspect only in America would any one have such free access to the tapes!!!!
cheers;
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sorry you can't see it--
even after the AA started his turn--i think i can hear in the ATC's voice "okay, he's doing what he thinks he needs to do--let's move on--i've got aircraft coming at me like there's no tomorrow."
any pilot that doesn't respect any ATC is simply ignorant and any ATC that doesn't respect pilots is simply ignorant as well. if they knew more about each other, they still might not agree on all points, but they would have respect.
any pilot that doesn't respect any ATC is simply ignorant and any ATC that doesn't respect pilots is simply ignorant as well. if they knew more about each other, they still might not agree on all points, but they would have respect.
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stator vane said>>>
any pilot that doesn't respect any ATC is simply ignorant and any ATC that doesn't respect pilots is simply ignorant as well. if they knew more about each other, they still might not agree on all points, but they would have respect.
Common-sense wisdom that's applicable in so many other areas as well...
Now, can someone please turn off the volcanic ash machine?
any pilot that doesn't respect any ATC is simply ignorant and any ATC that doesn't respect pilots is simply ignorant as well. if they knew more about each other, they still might not agree on all points, but they would have respect.
Common-sense wisdom that's applicable in so many other areas as well...
Now, can someone please turn off the volcanic ash machine?
The only arrogant person identified so far in this thread is you Ireland105. You're obvioulsy neither a pilot nor an ATCO. You don't seem to know JFK and you obviously didn't know that 31R was not closed. Personally, I didn't find the Captain's r/t arrogant or demeaning. He had a problem of some sort, made a decision and communicated his intentions clearly. No time for diplomacy or discussion at that point in his approach.
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Ireland 105
do you understand that YOU are saying the American pilot landed on a closed runway? He didn't! I say again he DID NOT.
so a great deal of your initial comment is WRONG. WRONG!
please understand that Three One Left was closed and American requested and was cleared to land (after declaring emergency) on Three One Right. Do you understand, OVER?
AS to Radio work in the United States...it has evolved beyond the standard . As wisely mentioned above, There isn't enough time to do everything the way the BOOK says. There are too many planes.
A huge amount of time has been used on this forum to make clear the following:
1. if You go around or divert or are otherwise interrrupted in your landing at JFK, you might end up flying at low altitude for over 100 miles...and fuel might get tight.
2. ATC must be aware of the crosswind and other limits used by airlines and be ready to change runway configuration or other clever methods to deal with such things.
3. That, on occasion, a pilot will make good on his word. The pilot clearly stated that if he didn't get the runway he wanted, he would declare an emergency. He didn't get what he wanted and DECLARED an emergency and then dealt with the emergency . EVEN ATC understood after awhile and CLEARED HIM to land on Three One right.
do you understand that YOU are saying the American pilot landed on a closed runway? He didn't! I say again he DID NOT.
so a great deal of your initial comment is WRONG. WRONG!
please understand that Three One Left was closed and American requested and was cleared to land (after declaring emergency) on Three One Right. Do you understand, OVER?
AS to Radio work in the United States...it has evolved beyond the standard . As wisely mentioned above, There isn't enough time to do everything the way the BOOK says. There are too many planes.
A huge amount of time has been used on this forum to make clear the following:
1. if You go around or divert or are otherwise interrrupted in your landing at JFK, you might end up flying at low altitude for over 100 miles...and fuel might get tight.
2. ATC must be aware of the crosswind and other limits used by airlines and be ready to change runway configuration or other clever methods to deal with such things.
3. That, on occasion, a pilot will make good on his word. The pilot clearly stated that if he didn't get the runway he wanted, he would declare an emergency. He didn't get what he wanted and DECLARED an emergency and then dealt with the emergency . EVEN ATC understood after awhile and CLEARED HIM to land on Three One right.
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Protectthehornet - Clearly the runway was open at the time of landing, I never said it wasnt.
Avman - I think most people would find the general tone of the pilot highly unprofessional and arrogant. Clearly, he was talking "at" the ATC officer rather than to him. No we are not looking for "diplomacy" as you so elequantly put it, rather a bit of professionalism and a concept of working together. Throwing himself into a line of traffic on another runway without appropriate approval is of course dangerous and needs to be recognised as such during both pilots review next week. So, if it was an cross wind than you go around and take further instructions. If its to do with low fuel than what were they doing without sufficient reserves on board - answer me that. Hopefully all will become more clear next Wednesday.
Avman - I think most people would find the general tone of the pilot highly unprofessional and arrogant. Clearly, he was talking "at" the ATC officer rather than to him. No we are not looking for "diplomacy" as you so elequantly put it, rather a bit of professionalism and a concept of working together. Throwing himself into a line of traffic on another runway without appropriate approval is of course dangerous and needs to be recognised as such during both pilots review next week. So, if it was an cross wind than you go around and take further instructions. If its to do with low fuel than what were they doing without sufficient reserves on board - answer me that. Hopefully all will become more clear next Wednesday.
skirts down and wait and see 
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As others here have noted none of your comments have anything to do "with the case at hand".
There is absolutely no information available at this time that indicates the pilot in question overstepped his authority in any way. He was on final when the crosswind exceeded his allowables and immediately requested the required change. My understanding is that if he in fact continued along the vector "suggested" that an emergency declared beyond a certain point would greatly complicated things for all parties.
By immediately declaring an emergency he mitigated the complications for others as much as possible.
From all I can gather he exercised his authority in accordance with generally accepted "best practice" until proven otherwise...
There is absolutely no information available at this time that indicates the pilot in question overstepped his authority in any way. He was on final when the crosswind exceeded his allowables and immediately requested the required change. My understanding is that if he in fact continued along the vector "suggested" that an emergency declared beyond a certain point would greatly complicated things for all parties.
By immediately declaring an emergency he mitigated the complications for others as much as possible.
From all I can gather he exercised his authority in accordance with generally accepted "best practice" until proven otherwise...
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pth,
Given that poor r/t has killed on more than one occasion, I don't think that's anything to brag about or be proud of that the system has evolved in such a manner.
AS to Radio work in the United States...it has evolved beyond the standard . As wisely mentioned above, There isn't enough time to do everything the way the BOOK says. There are too many planes.
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Roffa:
That is thread creep for it doesn't seem to have been an issue in the instant case. Having said that, you are absolutely correct. VHF voice communications have not improved since World War II. The system has just "progressed" to saturation at many times.
I have called it "the fragile VHF comm link" for years and, indeed, it has killed on far too many occasions; particularly with radar vectors in mountainous areas.
EGPWS has made a lot of saves since its implementation. Even the low-end terrain warning options in light aircraft Garmin panel-mount navigators have made some saves in recent years. We don't hear about most of them.
Given that poor r/t has killed on more than one occasion, I don't think that's anything to brag about or be proud of that the system has evolved in such a manner.
I have called it "the fragile VHF comm link" for years and, indeed, it has killed on far too many occasions; particularly with radar vectors in mountainous areas.
EGPWS has made a lot of saves since its implementation. Even the low-end terrain warning options in light aircraft Garmin panel-mount navigators have made some saves in recent years. We don't hear about most of them.