AA crew fed up with JFK ATC - declares emergency.
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Dutch Ajax:
Sort of like counting angels on the head of a pin.
The first time the pilot speaks about emergency he says: "if you don't give us 31R we are going to declare an emergency". The second time, after the controller tells the pilot to continue runway heading, he says:"OK, we are declaring an emergency to land 31R...". When the controller confirms the emergency the pilots responses: "Three times we are dreclaring an emergency...". The fact is that, before that last transmission, the pilot only once actually declared an emergency, the first time he said he was going to declared an emergency if he was not cleared to land on 31R.
Isn't this thread becoming a bit pathetic?
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I can't see how a discussion who is more important can help. Discussion about the emergency itself, fuel policies etc. might, but all we have here os some bickering who was more stupid and how do you call mayday...
Silly Pilots
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From the ASN:
24 JUN 1975
Type:Boeing 727-225 Operator:Eastern Air Lines Registration: N8845E
PROBABLE CAUSE: "... However, the adverse winds might have been too severe for a successful approach and landing even had they relied upon and responded rapidly to the indications of the flight instruments. Contributing to the accident was the continued use of runway 22L when it should have become evident to both air traffic control personnel and the flight crew that a severe weather hazard existed along the approach path."
Greetings,
Nic
24 JUN 1975
Type:Boeing 727-225 Operator:Eastern Air Lines Registration: N8845E
PROBABLE CAUSE: "... However, the adverse winds might have been too severe for a successful approach and landing even had they relied upon and responded rapidly to the indications of the flight instruments. Contributing to the accident was the continued use of runway 22L when it should have become evident to both air traffic control personnel and the flight crew that a severe weather hazard existed along the approach path."
Greetings,
Nic
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That would be EAL66... Microburst....
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 727-225 N8845E New York-John F. Kennedy International Airport, NY (JFK)
(NTSB AAR linked at the above...)
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 727-225 N8845E New York-John F. Kennedy International Airport, NY (JFK)
(NTSB AAR linked at the above...)
the lunatic fringe
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The US way of running aviation is about a 50 years ahead of anything found in the EU
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"a correct British way"???
RTO:
L337, you are fully correct! What a naive and arrogant thing to say.
RTO, you are probably flying IMC, get out of that cloud! You still don't get the point with the emergency call. The way the pilot communicates the emergency causes all the confusion.
And why stick to standard ICAO phraseology when you can make up your own RT, the standard ICAO phraseology is in your opinion probably only for non native English speakers.
The US way of running aviation is about a 50 years ahead of anything found in the EU, and as someone mentioned, has evolved into a system that works, handles more traffic, is simpler, safer and more efficient.
RTO, you are probably flying IMC, get out of that cloud! You still don't get the point with the emergency call. The way the pilot communicates the emergency causes all the confusion.
And why stick to standard ICAO phraseology when you can make up your own RT, the standard ICAO phraseology is in your opinion probably only for non native English speakers.
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That fact is that the big US airports handle far higher numbers of operations and that after time you get used to the way the particular facility gets things done. Co-operate and Graduate. Although busy, LRH has no where near the number of movements of the big US airports.
I don't think there was any communication gap in this event. There was no confusion that lasted more than a second or two. The real problem seems that our jolly friends in the UK don't like the way it was handled and feel obligated to talk down their noses to us. I hate to break it to you. New York is not part of Britain and has not been under it's thumb for a long time.
I don't think there was any communication gap in this event. There was no confusion that lasted more than a second or two. The real problem seems that our jolly friends in the UK don't like the way it was handled and feel obligated to talk down their noses to us. I hate to break it to you. New York is not part of Britain and has not been under it's thumb for a long time.
I have been following this thread pretty closely but it is just possible that I have missed something (at my age, this is not difficult).
I have heard comment that the crew made the comment that "this is the third time I have called an emergency" when there was only one such call on the JFK Tower frequency.
Have we absolutely established that the crew had not already declared an emergency on the JFK Approach frequency before changing to JFK Tower?
I just wonder if this saga might not have already been brewing long before the so-called "outburst".
I have heard comment that the crew made the comment that "this is the third time I have called an emergency" when there was only one such call on the JFK Tower frequency.
Have we absolutely established that the crew had not already declared an emergency on the JFK Approach frequency before changing to JFK Tower?
I just wonder if this saga might not have already been brewing long before the so-called "outburst".
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What happened to "Pan, Pan, Pan"
When I was in school we were taught to use the term "Pan, Pan, Pan" instead.....Just curious what happened to that being used to declare an emergency?
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Some strange school it was then, ask for a refund if it's not too late...
Plectron - maybe, but LHR is not the only airport serving London. Some American airports handle much more traffic than LHR, but quite often they are the single airport for this area, have many more runways (ATL for example), and airspace around them is far from being as complex as that around LHR.
PA - I think I was right after all...
Plectron - maybe, but LHR is not the only airport serving London. Some American airports handle much more traffic than LHR, but quite often they are the single airport for this area, have many more runways (ATL for example), and airspace around them is far from being as complex as that around LHR.
PA - I think I was right after all...
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Criss - U.S. airports are bigger but quite often are the only airports? Obviously you're unaware of the tremendous amount of business, and civilian flying, that is done at airports around major U.S. cities.
2007 LHR had 466,000 flights. Add Gatwick's 253,000, Stansted's 182,000 and you're at 900,000 flights. Add London City airport and you're approaching 1 million.
NYC? - 2007 JFK/EWR/LGA had 1,200,000. Add HPN's 153,000, TEB's 200,000, for a total over 1,400,00.
KATL(970K) handled twice as many flights LHR(466K), and is not the only airport that serves the Atlanta market. A primary reliever airport, PDK(Peachtree DeKalb) has approx. 230,000 annual movements. Two airports alone at 1.2 million.
L.A. basin? - 7 airports with airline service, 14 general avaition airports with towers, 5 military airports, and 9 uncontrolled airports. KLAX, ONT, BUR, SNA, LGB, VNY alone have almost 1.9 million flights.
KDFW, KDAL, and Addison airport (KADS) alone have 1.0 million movements. The three airports form a triangle with about 6 mile(10 km) legs.
2007 LHR had 466,000 flights. Add Gatwick's 253,000, Stansted's 182,000 and you're at 900,000 flights. Add London City airport and you're approaching 1 million.
NYC? - 2007 JFK/EWR/LGA had 1,200,000. Add HPN's 153,000, TEB's 200,000, for a total over 1,400,00.
KATL(970K) handled twice as many flights LHR(466K), and is not the only airport that serves the Atlanta market. A primary reliever airport, PDK(Peachtree DeKalb) has approx. 230,000 annual movements. Two airports alone at 1.2 million.
L.A. basin? - 7 airports with airline service, 14 general avaition airports with towers, 5 military airports, and 9 uncontrolled airports. KLAX, ONT, BUR, SNA, LGB, VNY alone have almost 1.9 million flights.
KDFW, KDAL, and Addison airport (KADS) alone have 1.0 million movements. The three airports form a triangle with about 6 mile(10 km) legs.
And that 1.4 million movements in NYC can be contained in a 20 nm circle! Add in about a dozen heliports and small airports in that circle and you can see that nowhere is more traffic jammed. I fly out of BDL and can file a flight plan to TEB on the phone, run out to a Global and get a clearance w/o delay. Did it last week--try that for a clearance from Gatwick to Stansted!
GF
GF
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Misd-agin - how many (parallel) rwys does KATL have? 
And London also has some more airports that you counted. In terms of complexity of airspace around, I don't think you can compare it. Anyway, as I stated in my previous posts, that's not a kind of discussion I want to make, as I think it's main purpose is to serve some egos...
And London also has some more airports that you counted. In terms of complexity of airspace around, I don't think you can compare it. Anyway, as I stated in my previous posts, that's not a kind of discussion I want to make, as I think it's main purpose is to serve some egos...
In terms of complexity of airspace around, I don't think you can compare it.
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Perhaps you should ask why it's been designed to that level of complexity if the number of operations don't justify it when compared to significantly busier terminal areas elsewhere.
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"when compared to significantly busier terminal areas elsewhere."
... even though the numbers given above don't justify that statement. Anyway, I'm quitting this ego match.
... even though the numbers given above don't justify that statement. Anyway, I'm quitting this ego match.