Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Curious, isn't it? And those nasty Finns showing innards of their F404s for the whole world to see. Must be a conspiracy at work here.
The F404 evidence is invalid, for the engines were not inspected BEFORE their flight - apparently only being inspected 3 months previous. When did the damage occur?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tullamore
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I don't disagree with the cautious sentiments being espoused, I can't help feeling that european authorities suffer from weekenditis. If this had started being a problem on a monday, it would be sorted by friday with at least a clear indication of what it would take for airspace to reopen. As it is, two days of apparent inactivity mean an extended period of uncertainty.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have data; government aircraft from several nations, including the UK have tested the air quality and stated that its is not good enough for aircraft to fly.
One might expect that the gases in a cloud should be able to travel longer distances then hard particles as hard particles are subject of gravity.
It is 1179 miles from Reykjavik to London.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many time have any of us flown though Volcanic Dust? I have not got a clue. But I know that with 13000 hrs I've done it more than once.Because there have been lots of eruptions during the last 25 years. Lets face it there is more risk of an aeroplane being brought down by a bird than low levels of ash. So let's all start looking for alternative emlpoyment.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: under a small carrot outside strathbungo
Age: 43
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from the bbc....
0934 The Press Association reports that thousands of UK airline workers could soon be laid off as a result of the crisis.
One of the options being considered is making staff take their holidays now, industry sources told the UK news agency
im getting worried, trying to get hold of my bapla rep...
anyone know any more?
0934 The Press Association reports that thousands of UK airline workers could soon be laid off as a result of the crisis.
One of the options being considered is making staff take their holidays now, industry sources told the UK news agency
im getting worried, trying to get hold of my bapla rep...
anyone know any more?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chillphil, how do you know the other two engines will start ?
Appears to be no quick fix, just two much data and questions need to be sorted.
Maint checks required after flight through Ash, expect some very long turn arounds !
Another point of interest, although some data of aircraft and Ash is known, it's possible that newer aircraft/systems/engines will not be the same as older types.
Not operating aircrafts in these present conditions in the short term may be a far cheaper option in the med/longer term.
Safe flying to all.
Appears to be no quick fix, just two much data and questions need to be sorted.
Maint checks required after flight through Ash, expect some very long turn arounds !
Another point of interest, although some data of aircraft and Ash is known, it's possible that newer aircraft/systems/engines will not be the same as older types.
Not operating aircrafts in these present conditions in the short term may be a far cheaper option in the med/longer term.
Safe flying to all.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks quieter at the source today
Picasa Web Albums - eyjafjallajokull_... - Eyjafjallajok...
From the Vodafone Iceland webcam this morning ... seems to be taking a day off today
From the Vodafone Iceland webcam this morning ... seems to be taking a day off today
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There seems to be a fair number of people calling for re-opening of the airspace, so how about they all pop on board a BA 747, and go flying for a few hours in the ash and let the rest of us know if its alright?
Personally I find it worrying that in the face of extreme doubt, there appear to be people in positions of responsibility who are behaving like cowboys with regard to safety. Reassuring... Not.
Personally I find it worrying that in the face of extreme doubt, there appear to be people in positions of responsibility who are behaving like cowboys with regard to safety. Reassuring... Not.
Actually, we are calling for a test aircraft to do this, so we know if it is safe to put passengers onboard and do the same. And then to check each aircraft every day to see if there is a problem. (Do a thread search for "two engines". And yes, I would do it - just give me the 747 rating
)If Orville and Wilbur had taken your position, we would never have gotten airborne in the first place.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South of the Watford Gap, East of Portland
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I mentioned in an earlier post that I believe that the UK's NATS have been politically 'served up' as the fall guy for this affair. I find it hard to believe that NATS alone has the executive authority to close UK airspace and that decsion has, I would suggest, have to be made at the highest level of government.
So, come on you hacks who read thses pages, do some digging and find out just who said 'yes'.
I note that Eurocontrol is already starting the back-peddling.
So, come on you hacks who read thses pages, do some digging and find out just who said 'yes'.
I note that Eurocontrol is already starting the back-peddling.
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 68
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure I like the idea of government / political pressure on decisions like this: recent events affecting eminent Polish citizens in a major way come to mind. This is an issue for professional assessment e.g. aviators, scientists, economists (re equipment impairment issues) etc but leave the getyouhomeitis mob out of it. And I speak as someone housing a "volcanic migrant" who was meant to be stopping for just two nights and who as we speak is working his way steadfastly through my wine fridge.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 3433N 06912E
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I appreciate how desperate the situation is, but you cannot, and must not allow aircraft full of people to fly through volcanic ash - no matter how much danger the airlines are in of financial ruin, regardless of how many days your family have been stuck in Mallorca. Everyone is desperate to get the planes in the air again, but some are advocating playing games with peoples' lives in order to get there.
No-one is suggesting or recommending commercial operations through a volcanic plume. To suggest such is disingenuous.
What the consideration is that flight operations resume in areas where there is little contamination.
So would you support that flight with zero ppm of volcanic dust particulates is what is required ? If so, then sorry aircraft will be grounded across the globe ad infinitum.
There will ALWAYS be volcanic particulates in the atmosphere, our planet is on a moving crust that magma perpetually vents and breaks through the crust expelling particulates into the atmosphere.
Previous large eruptions have seen particulates circle the globe three times and remain in the atmosphere for decades.
The point of consideration is to what level, and where, the contamination exists to pose a significant threat to the integrity of of the aircraft.
Is it 30ppm, or 100ppm or 1000ppm ?
At what level will such a contamination concentration reduce TBO's on an engine, and at what level will concentrations cause an engine to shut down or cause catastrophic failure ? blade vibration through cracking of the coating on an HPC disk blade can lead to wear and subsequent catastrophic failure, such test have been conducted and they are known factors, hence why AD's and SB's are issued in accordance with manufacturers maintenance programs.
Once a determining factor has been derived, then there needs to be a consideration as to where those concentration levels exist and ASHTAM's issued to disseminate this information in order that operations can be conducted with the knowledge and data available for safe operations.
We have all this technology and capability, however, it is not implemented.
The primary sources of selenium are volcanic emanations and metallic sulfides associated with igneous activity. Secondary sources are biological sinks in which it has accumulated. The selenium content of black shales, coal, and petroleum is 10-20 times the crustal abundance (0.05 ppm).
Seleniferous black shales are the parent materials of the widespread seleniferous soils of the western plains of the United States. When burned, coal and petroleum containing selenium give rise to a redistribution of particulate Se0 and SeO2. The average selenium content of U. S. coal is about 3 ppm and of petroleum about 0.2 ppm. Selenium is an essential nutrient for animals and is required at a concentration of about 40 ppb in their diet; at concentrations of 4000 ppb and above, however, it becomes toxic to animals.
Seleniferous black shales are the parent materials of the widespread seleniferous soils of the western plains of the United States. When burned, coal and petroleum containing selenium give rise to a redistribution of particulate Se0 and SeO2. The average selenium content of U. S. coal is about 3 ppm and of petroleum about 0.2 ppm. Selenium is an essential nutrient for animals and is required at a concentration of about 40 ppb in their diet; at concentrations of 4000 ppb and above, however, it becomes toxic to animals.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
silverstrata,
reading your numerous posts, including, most tellingly, the one above it appears to me that you will rubbish any evidence unless it points to opening airspace. You dismiss the environmental aircrafts findings, yet are happy to take a couple of flights by BA, KLM etc, which have no on board sensors as proof that everything is safe.
You dismiss the F18 engine degradation because the engines had not had a thorough inspection for 3 months (your statement that the engines had not been inspected for 3 months wrong and misleading) - the fact that the damage would have been visible on a normal 25 hour servicing schedule (or whatever period the Finn mil use) is probably not enough evidence for you either no doubt...
There is a very high possibility that there has been an unwarranted level of airspace closure over this volcanic activity, but for anyone to call it a 'knee jerk reaction' or such is completely wrong. A knee jerk reaction would be an action/measures taken that went beyond internationally accepted procedures.
In the case of the UK, NATS have sanctioned IFR flying in airspace as and when the charts have shown a clear window (look back at the scottish airspace for example). NATS and other ANSPs are acting on instructions and procedures laid down by governing bodies, and to a certain extent are being given no guidance by those above.
This 're-opening' and 'closing' of airspace is evidence that the ANSP is working to the rules it is governed by, not 'over reacting'.
The fact the rules may be outdated is another matter. ANSPs do not write the rule book in these instances, however they must follow it.
It is up to the governing bodies to allow a relaxation of these (no doubt archaic) rules. The ANSP of the country can only do what is laid down - to do otherwise is illegal.
Finally, people talk about the fact that aviation has always involved 'risk'. That is 100% correct - even today in normal operations there is a level of risk that is mitigated against. However this 'risk' has been analysed and assesed and then deemed acceptable.
The FACT of the matter is, there is not enough data available to do the same with volcanic ash - the risk is unquantifiable and unfortunately that's not good enough for modern aviation... therefore using the argument 'flying always contains an element of risk' is complete tosh in this instance.
Yoganmahew
To claim that because this started on Thursday night and therefore a solution has been slow in coming because people have been away for the weekend is the most ridiculous and ignorant statement yet.
There have been continual high level meetings about this since Thursday evening.
reading your numerous posts, including, most tellingly, the one above it appears to me that you will rubbish any evidence unless it points to opening airspace. You dismiss the environmental aircrafts findings, yet are happy to take a couple of flights by BA, KLM etc, which have no on board sensors as proof that everything is safe.
You dismiss the F18 engine degradation because the engines had not had a thorough inspection for 3 months (your statement that the engines had not been inspected for 3 months wrong and misleading) - the fact that the damage would have been visible on a normal 25 hour servicing schedule (or whatever period the Finn mil use) is probably not enough evidence for you either no doubt...
There is a very high possibility that there has been an unwarranted level of airspace closure over this volcanic activity, but for anyone to call it a 'knee jerk reaction' or such is completely wrong. A knee jerk reaction would be an action/measures taken that went beyond internationally accepted procedures.
In the case of the UK, NATS have sanctioned IFR flying in airspace as and when the charts have shown a clear window (look back at the scottish airspace for example). NATS and other ANSPs are acting on instructions and procedures laid down by governing bodies, and to a certain extent are being given no guidance by those above.
This 're-opening' and 'closing' of airspace is evidence that the ANSP is working to the rules it is governed by, not 'over reacting'.
The fact the rules may be outdated is another matter. ANSPs do not write the rule book in these instances, however they must follow it.
It is up to the governing bodies to allow a relaxation of these (no doubt archaic) rules. The ANSP of the country can only do what is laid down - to do otherwise is illegal.
Finally, people talk about the fact that aviation has always involved 'risk'. That is 100% correct - even today in normal operations there is a level of risk that is mitigated against. However this 'risk' has been analysed and assesed and then deemed acceptable.
The FACT of the matter is, there is not enough data available to do the same with volcanic ash - the risk is unquantifiable and unfortunately that's not good enough for modern aviation... therefore using the argument 'flying always contains an element of risk' is complete tosh in this instance.
Yoganmahew
To claim that because this started on Thursday night and therefore a solution has been slow in coming because people have been away for the weekend is the most ridiculous and ignorant statement yet.
There have been continual high level meetings about this since Thursday evening.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've just read the report from the Dornier 228 ... and they had a definite bum sucking up seat cloth moment at 5000 feet 52.75N 002.38E.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Denmark
Age: 74
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good one Silverstrata.
Nobody is trying to push things beyond reasonable safety. Many aircrafts have flown in light ash over time with very little impact on operation or maintenance.
Aircraft take-off and land every day in plume, smoke and dust of various kinds. We also know how to direct aircraft around 'heavy' and 'moderate' conditions.
There is no reason to keep airlines from operating in the entire airspace!
Nobody is trying to push things beyond reasonable safety. Many aircrafts have flown in light ash over time with very little impact on operation or maintenance.
Aircraft take-off and land every day in plume, smoke and dust of various kinds. We also know how to direct aircraft around 'heavy' and 'moderate' conditions.
There is no reason to keep airlines from operating in the entire airspace!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You dismiss the environmental aircrafts findings
Did they find that dangerous particles were found in high concentration, or they simply found presence of volcanic-related gases in the atmosphere?
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting article and images about damaged f-18 engines from the ash cloud.
PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust-16/04/2010-London-Flightglobal.com
PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust-16/04/2010-London-Flightglobal.com
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Samsonite
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There seems to be a fair number of people calling for re-opening of the airspace, so how about they all pop on board a BA 747, and go flying for a few hours in the ash and let the rest of us know if its alright?
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts