Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 487
Likes: 42
From: Planet Earth, mostly
If we fly you tomorrow to Benidorm or Greece for a hundred and fifty quid, will you cheerfully cough up Five hundred quid in three months time when we discover that transporting you to your holiday destination ruined our engines?
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 27
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From: Tullamore
@anotherthing
"To claim that because this started on Thursday night and therefore a solution has been slow in coming because people have been away for the weekend is the most ridiculous and ignorant statement yet.
There have been continual high level meetings about this since Thursday evening."
Eh, no. Not the 'most' anyway.
Is it ridiculous and ignorant that government shuts down at the weekend across europe? (And the rest of the world, to be fair). Yes. But since most decisions are made on the basis of the opinion writers in the sunday papers, it is hardly surprising.
The EU finally kicked into action this morning, allowing financial aid to airlines. That's great if your country is not bust. The Irish government is putting its emergency response plan into action. Super. The problem, though, is european; the incompetentencies are national.
"To claim that because this started on Thursday night and therefore a solution has been slow in coming because people have been away for the weekend is the most ridiculous and ignorant statement yet.
There have been continual high level meetings about this since Thursday evening."
Eh, no. Not the 'most' anyway.
Is it ridiculous and ignorant that government shuts down at the weekend across europe? (And the rest of the world, to be fair). Yes. But since most decisions are made on the basis of the opinion writers in the sunday papers, it is hardly surprising.
The EU finally kicked into action this morning, allowing financial aid to airlines. That's great if your country is not bust. The Irish government is putting its emergency response plan into action. Super. The problem, though, is european; the incompetentencies are national.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: london
Ash clouds.
What we need are some Drones to fly into the ash clouds. To find out the composition density position of the ash. I dornier with sensors is not enough.
A few flights by interested airines without proper sensors is all showmanship.
Also we need some research into the effects of ash on engines, airframes,pitot systems etc.
By doing this we can find out which levels are harmful to Aviation. At present the powers that be are taking the safest route.
A few flights by interested airines without proper sensors is all showmanship.
Also we need some research into the effects of ash on engines, airframes,pitot systems etc.
By doing this we can find out which levels are harmful to Aviation. At present the powers that be are taking the safest route.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,980
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From: Gatwick
HighLow
The press are reporting -
"A team of engineers have carried out a detailed visual inspection and found no sign of damage to the aircraft or its engines."
A DVI is not a quick front and back check; it is as it is named.
"A team of engineers have carried out a detailed visual inspection and found no sign of damage to the aircraft or its engines."
A DVI is not a quick front and back check; it is as it is named.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 328
Likes: 16
From: Finland
IATA says closedown is "embarassment for Europe" reports BBC World News ticker.
Sky News ticker reports some NATO aircraft reporting problems with engines after flying in airspace here due ash. Also that eU may give exceptional financial aid to airlines.
Sky News ticker reports some NATO aircraft reporting problems with engines after flying in airspace here due ash. Also that eU may give exceptional financial aid to airlines.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
From: Germany
ETRANG, look at what you have just said.......
Maybe they will go bankrupt or not,
You are naive to think that there won't be some assistance by Europe. So stop freaking out, and panic wont help.Don't even bother pointing out european rules restricting assistance to airlines from governments etc. This is not relevant in this situation.....
Damaged Engines = Reduced Safety Margins
no buts or exceptions.
the fact you would suggest they should fly or else out of business shows to me how important you place safety within our industry.
Maybe they will go bankrupt or not,
You are naive to think that there won't be some assistance by Europe. So stop freaking out, and panic wont help.Don't even bother pointing out european rules restricting assistance to airlines from governments etc. This is not relevant in this situation.....
Damaged Engines = Reduced Safety Margins
no buts or exceptions.
the fact you would suggest they should fly or else out of business shows to me how important you place safety within our industry.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: 3433N 06912E
The press are reporting -
"A team of engineers have carried out a detailed visual inspection and found no sign of damage to the aircraft or its engines."
A DVI is not a quick front and back check; it is as it is named.
"A team of engineers have carried out a detailed visual inspection and found no sign of damage to the aircraft or its engines."
A DVI is not a quick front and back check; it is as it is named.
Joined: Jan 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Again, measuring the concentration is a nice idea, but it won´t tell us anything because there are no established limits of what is safe and what not. I guess it´s more a way to get out of the whole thing while saving face.
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 491
From: Europe
Highlo, everytime you do an reduced thrust takeoff you reduce your safetymargins. When you takeoff on a wet runway you reduce the twice over. Nothing new! Then again, if you use TOGA your engine may blow up sooner.
If tests show we can deal with CAVOK ash, will you fly?
If tests show we can deal with CAVOK ash, will you fly?
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Bruce absolutely, a boroscope inspection would be more detailed to a point.
But look who is doing the inspection, an entity (BA) who wants to get flying.
Its like this,
Imagine you killed someone and being a judge, you had to convict yourself, would you?
BA wants to fly, of course we all want to fly, but from I can understand of the situation, there are no IMPARTIAL inspections taking place.
The only people keeping it together, are Eurocontrol and the likes.
I just hope they don't back down for the wrong reasons.
What we need are wind changes etc and that volcano to stop belching out this material into the air.
PENKO: your comment about reduced take off etc. Big Difference, there isn't bits of glass melting in the combustion chamber and choking the engine. CAVOK? can you see ash travelling at 800 km/h.
But look who is doing the inspection, an entity (BA) who wants to get flying.
Its like this,
Imagine you killed someone and being a judge, you had to convict yourself, would you?
BA wants to fly, of course we all want to fly, but from I can understand of the situation, there are no IMPARTIAL inspections taking place.
The only people keeping it together, are Eurocontrol and the likes.
I just hope they don't back down for the wrong reasons.
What we need are wind changes etc and that volcano to stop belching out this material into the air.
PENKO: your comment about reduced take off etc. Big Difference, there isn't bits of glass melting in the combustion chamber and choking the engine. CAVOK? can you see ash travelling at 800 km/h.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 738
Likes: 4
From: london,uk
But if the airlines don't start flying again they will all be bankrupt in three months time.
If airlines chose to wreck their only assets in order to keep running for three months there won't be any chance European governments could save them.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 14
From: Europe
Clandestino
It's the choice of going bankrupt now, with equipment ready to go when ash disperses, financing becomes available and new airlines arise from the ashes of old, or going bankrupt a few months later with equipment that no money will help get airborne.
It's the choice of going bankrupt now, with equipment ready to go when ash disperses, financing becomes available and new airlines arise from the ashes of old, or going bankrupt a few months later with equipment that no money will help get airborne.
Who cares about new airlines if old didn't came though? If there will be a massive bunkruptcies now, you can forget about getting a penny for new airlines, especially when the root cause of failure (volcano and stupid authorities) are still in place.
Long term profits are important. But they are nothing without positive cashflow. Probably you don't know, but 4 out of 5 airlines are failing because of cash shortage, not because of lack of profit.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 0
From: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Here we are once again referring to my earlier post located here.
The home office has decided to take similar action to my earlier suggestion - albeit HMS Navy ships in place of rail and motor coaches:
Now where's my biccie? 
The home office has decided to take similar action to my earlier suggestion - albeit HMS Navy ships in place of rail and motor coaches:
As forecasters warned the cloud from the Iceland volcano could prevent flights over Britain all week, government ministers denied they had been slow to act as calls intensified for the no fly ban to be lifted.
After a meeting of Cobra, the Government's emergency planning committee in Whitehall, the Prime Minister announced that HMS Ark Royal and HMS Ocean were being made available to help thousands of Britons stranded, most notably in France.
The Spanish government on Monday said its airports would be used to get 70,000 stranded Britons home around the ash cloud that has paralysed European air traffic.
In an attempt to address criticism that the Government has been slow to respond to the crisis, the Prime Minister also said the British government was examining the financial impact on airlines and associated companies of the closure of UK airspace.
The chaos caused by the eruption of an Icelandic volcano, now entering its fifth day, has left more than one million British travellers stranded abroad.
The unprecedented disruption to airline passengers has already cost the economy £500 million and is costing airlines worldwide £130 million a day.
After a meeting of Cobra, the Government's emergency planning committee in Whitehall, the Prime Minister announced that HMS Ark Royal and HMS Ocean were being made available to help thousands of Britons stranded, most notably in France.
The Spanish government on Monday said its airports would be used to get 70,000 stranded Britons home around the ash cloud that has paralysed European air traffic.
In an attempt to address criticism that the Government has been slow to respond to the crisis, the Prime Minister also said the British government was examining the financial impact on airlines and associated companies of the closure of UK airspace.
The chaos caused by the eruption of an Icelandic volcano, now entering its fifth day, has left more than one million British travellers stranded abroad.
The unprecedented disruption to airline passengers has already cost the economy £500 million and is costing airlines worldwide £130 million a day.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: EGCC
Peter We:
Can you please direct me to the website(s) where such information can be viewed? Thanks, mate.
We have data; government aircraft from several nations, including the UK have tested the air quality and stated that its is not good enough for aircraft to fly. You choose to ignore that, as well as ignoring the advice of engineers, engine manufactures and the experience of the many aircraft that have flow through similar concentrations of ash plumes.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
From: Gatwick
Bruce absolutely, a boroscope inspection would be more detailed to a point.
But look who is doing the inspection, an entity (BA) who wants to get flying.
Its like this,
Imagine you killed someone and being a judge, you had to convict yourself, would you?
BA wants to fly, of course we all want to fly, but from I can understand of the situation, there are no IMPARTIAL inspections taking place.
The only people keeping it together, are Eurocontrol and the likes.
I just hope they don't back down for the wrong reasons.
What we need are wind changes etc and that volcano to stop belching out this material into the air.
PENKO: your comment about reduced take off etc. Big Difference, there isn't bits of glass melting in the combustion chamber and choking the engine. CAVOK? can you see ash travelling at 800 km/h.
But look who is doing the inspection, an entity (BA) who wants to get flying.
Its like this,
Imagine you killed someone and being a judge, you had to convict yourself, would you?
BA wants to fly, of course we all want to fly, but from I can understand of the situation, there are no IMPARTIAL inspections taking place.
The only people keeping it together, are Eurocontrol and the likes.
I just hope they don't back down for the wrong reasons.
What we need are wind changes etc and that volcano to stop belching out this material into the air.
PENKO: your comment about reduced take off etc. Big Difference, there isn't bits of glass melting in the combustion chamber and choking the engine. CAVOK? can you see ash travelling at 800 km/h.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Costa Packet
I think all interested paries need to put financial interests aside and take advice from the Meteorology Scientists and Volcanic experts. They don't tell me how to fly and I won't tell them they are wrong.
Safety first....end of
Safety first....end of
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 491
From: Europe
Can I see ash at 800 km/hr? Well, irrelevant as that question may be, I can see waterclouds flying even faster. So...
Anyway, we were talking about the invisible stuff which may or may not affect the engine after a few months. Right?
Anyway, we were talking about the invisible stuff which may or may not affect the engine after a few months. Right?