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Polish Government Tu154M crash

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Polish Government Tu154M crash

Old 10th Apr 2010, 14:08
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Someone has to say this now. If you don't know polish mentality you wonТt be able to understand why this happened. To make the story short - they (pilots) had to land, no matter what.
What are you talking about?!
We've got thesame procedures like rest of civilised world. It depends on pilot that he/she should land.
Other subject is a pressure on crew carying VVIP, but I think that is the same level of pressure as flying Citation with your boss who is late for buisness meeteng.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 14:12
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Source ? That would certainly give a new angle to things, however all I can find on this presently is your word...
Polish TV say that few minutes ago. But they did't say if they loose parts before place of crash, or parts fall-off in case of hitting something.

Here is the situation:
http://avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 14:20
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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...is the same level of pressure as flying Citation with your boss who is late for buisness meeteng...
...which is exactly why we know of several business bosses who have ended up among trees and smoldering parts of Citations a few hundred feet short of a runway, never making their meeting...

Last edited by andrasz; 10th Apr 2010 at 14:40.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 14:23
  #104 (permalink)  
AlwaysOnFire
 
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Both Tu-154m salons that PAF operates where made in 1990, one delivered directly to PAF the other is a former LOT aircraft.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 14:48
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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<<How many of you made a fourth attempt to bring your bird down in such weather conditions?>>

At many places they would not have been allowed to make an approach in such conditions, let alone several go-arounds.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 15:31
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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brief from russian and polish websites: even several hrs after chash, they were waiting for the experts, bodies remained to be inside the wreck. russian president medvediev ordered to start investigation and a special investigation commision had been crated. guess, who is the head of this commision? putin! former president of russia, former KGB agent, military jet licence holder.
meanwhile, polish government (the ones that weren't on the way to memorial service) are working on getting visas to russia, so they can start their own investigation.
now, the most idiotic about the accident itself: 3 missed approaches, on the 4-th one 200-300m away from runway (!!!) - altitude 2.5metres!
comment from experienced polish pilot Dariush Sobchinski, who knew flight crew in person. he said, they were high class professionals and 4 approaches means the jet must have been allright, as if not, after 2-th attempt, there would be no attempts in such fog, as afficials claim to be at that moment.
can anyone comment this for me, please?
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 15:41
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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This article : Lenta.ru: ¬ мире: Ёкипаж самолета  ачиньского игнорировал команды руководства аэродрома (in russian) says the following (translated by Google with my edits):
The crew of the Tu-154 of Polish President Lech Kaczynski repeatedly failed to comply with instructions of chief controller (title?) of airfield "Smolensk". This, according to ITAR-TASS, said Deputy Chief of Staff of the Russian Air Force Lt. Gen. Alexander Aleshin. According to him, a flight controllers at a distance of 1.5 kilometers discovered that the Tu-154 increased the vertical velocity and reduced the height of flight.

Chief controller gave the order to transition the aircraft to level flight, and when the crew failed to comply with instructions, several times he gave the command to use the alternate airfield. Nevertheless, the crew continued to descend" - added Aleshin.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 15:53
  #108 (permalink)  
JeV
 
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Latest news form Poland says aircraft crashed on second approach (not 4h). Probably media mixed holding or sth like that with circling around airport. Common thing...
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:04
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps one could keep one's political opinions about news outlets out of this discussion? Perhaps this would be more to your liking, if the messenger is so important to you.
With respect, the accident you link to was multi-faceted, the story you quote is early speculation, and the final conclusion would find that this focus was really an indirect element.

If indeed this was the 4th G/A (with a failure to arrest in time), and the WX was such that an approach should never have been attempted (especially given the local navaid situation) - and these facts can be established pretty definitely quickly, then that must make a convincing CFIT case. IMHO.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:04
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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CNN report on crash

CNN has interviewed a journalist from a Polish newspaper, who confirms reports of several attempts at landing prior to crash

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:06
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Escuse me,

It is said that pilots performed 4 approaches. If that information is confirmed, that means bad C.R.M & Bad Airmanship.

Keep in mind that when you decide the third approach is because you are in emergency.

Im sorry.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:21
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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07:00Z (10am) Temp 1∞C Dew 1∞C Humidity 98% QNH 1026 hPa Visibility 0.5 kilometers Winds SE 10.8 km/h / Heavy Fog
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:23
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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ok, here is the a/c itself, a few days ago YouTube - TU154M Polish AF N 101 from 20100408

it was recently fully refirbished and equipped with the latest navigation systems only 3 months ago.
it was not an accident and i will never think otherwise. but i do respect attempts to keep this forum out of political speculations of any kinds.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:38
  #114 (permalink)  
JeV
 
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Polish TU154M Lux had Rolls-Royce engines and also probably most sophisticated nav equipment from all Tu around world including normal FMC for instance.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:48
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Question

Are there approach charts for this airport available for general public ? I could not find any.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:51
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Re Post 108

The comments...

'Chief controller gave the order to transition the aircraft to level flight, and when the crew failed to comply with instructions, several times he gave the command to use the alternate airfield. Nevertheless, the crew continued to descend"

...would suggest to me that, given the poor visibility, the only way a controller would know if the aircraft was descending would be if the aircraft was on a PAR approach. Much has been made of the fact that the airfield did not have any precision aids, such as ILS, but as a military field it may well have PAR.

Furthermore, given the quality of crew selected for VIP duties - ANYWHERE - it is stretching the bounds of possibility that a VIP commander would attempt an approach, let alone a landing, without an approach aid commensurate with the weather conditions that have been reported.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:57
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Charts

Not all that likely IMO.

National militaries tend to be a bit secretive at times
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 16:58
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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CASA also crashed on PAR approach.

There was certainly PAR equipment on Severnyi.
If it was in use and if it was PAR approach, we will know later.

All Polish military pilots are used to and current on PAR approaches.
Until recently most of the Polish military airfields didn't have ILS, just PAR.

In case of the CASA accident the pilots were used to ILS, flying to
Afganistan and mainly from EPKR, not to PAR.

Also the 154 pilots were mainly (or almost only) flying ILS.
Seldom, if ever PAR.
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 17:00
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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If you zoom in a bit and choose "hybrid" view the crash location is fairly clear.

ASN Accident location map 10 APR 2010 Tupolev 154M 101
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Old 10th Apr 2010, 17:02
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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criss,

I would be interested to know what you think I have posted that is "crap".

That the Tu154 has a poorer safety record than Western types

That the repeated attempts to accomplish a NPA in 500m visibility may have been a major factor

That the crew were under undue pressure to " complete the mission" if they truly made 4 attempts to get in

That if reports are true suggesting the aircraft crashed in a banked attitude it is quite possible the crew saw the lights (perhaps because they busted the minima in a last desparate 4th attempt to please the VIP's) and were trying to convert the offset quite possible on an NPA into a landing , at low altitude in the fog

Which part of the above do you classify as "crap" as opposed to half reasonable assumption?

Whilst some of this is certainly pure conjecture on my part, this particular forum is called "Rumours and News", so to your good self, the earlier now deleted well wisher who so kindly identified me as a muppet (how observant ) and clivewatson, I can only say, use your imagination and professional knowledge and experience (assuming you have any ) and tell me how the suggestions I have made are so flawed then smart @sses.



Oh BTW, JeV could you give us some details of these Rolls Royce powered Tu154,s think we would all like to hear about that mod

Last edited by captplaystation; 10th Apr 2010 at 17:23.
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