Polish Government Tu154M crash
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Someone has to say this now. If you don't know polish mentality you won’t be able to understand why this happened. To make the story short - they (pilots) had to land, no matter what.
We've got thesame procedures like rest of civilised world. It depends on pilot that he/she should land.
Other subject is a pressure on crew carying VVIP, but I think that is the same level of pressure as flying Citation with your boss who is late for buisness meeteng.
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Source ? That would certainly give a new angle to things, however all I can find on this presently is your word...
Here is the situation:
http://avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0
...is the same level of pressure as flying Citation with your boss who is late for buisness meeteng...
Last edited by andrasz; 10th Apr 2010 at 14:40.
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<<How many of you made a fourth attempt to bring your bird down in such weather conditions?>>
At many places they would not have been allowed to make an approach in such conditions, let alone several go-arounds.
At many places they would not have been allowed to make an approach in such conditions, let alone several go-arounds.
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brief from russian and polish websites: even several hrs after chash, they were waiting for the experts, bodies remained to be inside the wreck. russian president medvediev ordered to start investigation and a special investigation commision had been crated. guess, who is the head of this commision? putin! former president of russia, former KGB agent, military jet licence holder.
meanwhile, polish government (the ones that weren't on the way to memorial service) are working on getting visas to russia, so they can start their own investigation.
now, the most idiotic about the accident itself: 3 missed approaches, on the 4-th one 200-300m away from runway (!!!) - altitude 2.5metres!
comment from experienced polish pilot Dariush Sobchinski, who knew flight crew in person. he said, they were high class professionals and 4 approaches means the jet must have been allright, as if not, after 2-th attempt, there would be no attempts in such fog, as afficials claim to be at that moment.
can anyone comment this for me, please?
meanwhile, polish government (the ones that weren't on the way to memorial service) are working on getting visas to russia, so they can start their own investigation.
now, the most idiotic about the accident itself: 3 missed approaches, on the 4-th one 200-300m away from runway (!!!) - altitude 2.5metres!
comment from experienced polish pilot Dariush Sobchinski, who knew flight crew in person. he said, they were high class professionals and 4 approaches means the jet must have been allright, as if not, after 2-th attempt, there would be no attempts in such fog, as afficials claim to be at that moment.
can anyone comment this for me, please?
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This article : Lenta.ru:  ìèðå: Ýêèïàæ ñàìîëåòà Êà÷èíüñêîãî èãíîðèðîâàë êîìàíäû ðóêîâîäñòâà àýðîäðîìà (in russian) says the following (translated by Google with my edits):
The crew of the Tu-154 of Polish President Lech Kaczynski repeatedly failed to comply with instructions of chief controller (title?) of airfield "Smolensk". This, according to ITAR-TASS, said Deputy Chief of Staff of the Russian Air Force Lt. Gen. Alexander Aleshin. According to him, a flight controllers at a distance of 1.5 kilometers discovered that the Tu-154 increased the vertical velocity and reduced the height of flight.
Chief controller gave the order to transition the aircraft to level flight, and when the crew failed to comply with instructions, several times he gave the command to use the alternate airfield. Nevertheless, the crew continued to descend" - added Aleshin.
Chief controller gave the order to transition the aircraft to level flight, and when the crew failed to comply with instructions, several times he gave the command to use the alternate airfield. Nevertheless, the crew continued to descend" - added Aleshin.
Perhaps one could keep one's political opinions about news outlets out of this discussion? Perhaps this would be more to your liking, if the messenger is so important to you.
If indeed this was the 4th G/A (with a failure to arrest in time), and the WX was such that an approach should never have been attempted (especially given the local navaid situation) - and these facts can be established pretty definitely quickly, then that must make a convincing CFIT case. IMHO.
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CNN report on crash
CNN has interviewed a journalist from a Polish newspaper, who confirms reports of several attempts at landing prior to crash
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
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Escuse me,
It is said that pilots performed 4 approaches. If that information is confirmed, that means bad C.R.M & Bad Airmanship.
Keep in mind that when you decide the third approach is because you are in emergency.
Im sorry.
It is said that pilots performed 4 approaches. If that information is confirmed, that means bad C.R.M & Bad Airmanship.
Keep in mind that when you decide the third approach is because you are in emergency.
Im sorry.
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ok, here is the a/c itself, a few days ago YouTube - TU154M Polish AF N 101 from 20100408
it was recently fully refirbished and equipped with the latest navigation systems only 3 months ago.
it was not an accident and i will never think otherwise. but i do respect attempts to keep this forum out of political speculations of any kinds.
it was recently fully refirbished and equipped with the latest navigation systems only 3 months ago.
it was not an accident and i will never think otherwise. but i do respect attempts to keep this forum out of political speculations of any kinds.
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Re Post 108
The comments...
'Chief controller gave the order to transition the aircraft to level flight, and when the crew failed to comply with instructions, several times he gave the command to use the alternate airfield. Nevertheless, the crew continued to descend"
...would suggest to me that, given the poor visibility, the only way a controller would know if the aircraft was descending would be if the aircraft was on a PAR approach. Much has been made of the fact that the airfield did not have any precision aids, such as ILS, but as a military field it may well have PAR.
Furthermore, given the quality of crew selected for VIP duties - ANYWHERE - it is stretching the bounds of possibility that a VIP commander would attempt an approach, let alone a landing, without an approach aid commensurate with the weather conditions that have been reported.
The comments...
'Chief controller gave the order to transition the aircraft to level flight, and when the crew failed to comply with instructions, several times he gave the command to use the alternate airfield. Nevertheless, the crew continued to descend"
...would suggest to me that, given the poor visibility, the only way a controller would know if the aircraft was descending would be if the aircraft was on a PAR approach. Much has been made of the fact that the airfield did not have any precision aids, such as ILS, but as a military field it may well have PAR.
Furthermore, given the quality of crew selected for VIP duties - ANYWHERE - it is stretching the bounds of possibility that a VIP commander would attempt an approach, let alone a landing, without an approach aid commensurate with the weather conditions that have been reported.
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CASA also crashed on PAR approach.
There was certainly PAR equipment on Severnyi.
If it was in use and if it was PAR approach, we will know later.
All Polish military pilots are used to and current on PAR approaches.
Until recently most of the Polish military airfields didn't have ILS, just PAR.
In case of the CASA accident the pilots were used to ILS, flying to
Afganistan and mainly from EPKR, not to PAR.
Also the 154 pilots were mainly (or almost only) flying ILS.
Seldom, if ever PAR.
There was certainly PAR equipment on Severnyi.
If it was in use and if it was PAR approach, we will know later.
All Polish military pilots are used to and current on PAR approaches.
Until recently most of the Polish military airfields didn't have ILS, just PAR.
In case of the CASA accident the pilots were used to ILS, flying to
Afganistan and mainly from EPKR, not to PAR.
Also the 154 pilots were mainly (or almost only) flying ILS.
Seldom, if ever PAR.
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If you zoom in a bit and choose "hybrid" view the crash location is fairly clear.
ASN Accident location map 10 APR 2010 Tupolev 154M 101
ASN Accident location map 10 APR 2010 Tupolev 154M 101
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criss,
I would be interested to know what you think I have posted that is "crap".
That the Tu154 has a poorer safety record than Western types
That the repeated attempts to accomplish a NPA in 500m visibility may have been a major factor
That the crew were under undue pressure to " complete the mission" if they truly made 4 attempts to get in
That if reports are true suggesting the aircraft crashed in a banked attitude it is quite possible the crew saw the lights (perhaps because they busted the minima in a last desparate 4th attempt to please the VIP's) and were trying to convert the offset quite possible on an NPA into a landing , at low altitude in the fog
Which part of the above do you classify as "crap" as opposed to half reasonable assumption?
Whilst some of this is certainly pure conjecture on my part, this particular forum is called "Rumours and News", so to your good self, the earlier now deleted well wisher who so kindly identified me as a muppet (how observant
) and clivewatson, I can only say, use your imagination and professional knowledge and experience (assuming you have any ) and tell me how the suggestions I have made are so flawed then smart @sses.
Oh BTW, JeV could you give us some details of these Rolls Royce powered Tu154,s think we would all like to hear about that mod
I would be interested to know what you think I have posted that is "crap".
That the Tu154 has a poorer safety record than Western types
That the repeated attempts to accomplish a NPA in 500m visibility may have been a major factor
That the crew were under undue pressure to " complete the mission" if they truly made 4 attempts to get in
That if reports are true suggesting the aircraft crashed in a banked attitude it is quite possible the crew saw the lights (perhaps because they busted the minima in a last desparate 4th attempt to please the VIP's) and were trying to convert the offset quite possible on an NPA into a landing , at low altitude in the fog
Which part of the above do you classify as "crap" as opposed to half reasonable assumption?
Whilst some of this is certainly pure conjecture on my part, this particular forum is called "Rumours and News", so to your good self, the earlier now deleted well wisher who so kindly identified me as a muppet (how observant
) and clivewatson, I can only say, use your imagination and professional knowledge and experience (assuming you have any ) and tell me how the suggestions I have made are so flawed then smart @sses.Oh BTW, JeV could you give us some details of these Rolls Royce powered Tu154,s think we would all like to hear about that mod
Last edited by captplaystation; 10th Apr 2010 at 17:23.