ethiopian airlines aircraft down near Beirut
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Hey ettore-
We've become immune to finding out details of who was responsible for most big issues here in Lebanon. Never found out who killed a lot of politicians over the years for example...
It's not justice or more details of the crash the families r looking for, just compensation now- since justice wont bring their loved ones back. Of the five stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance) they've already reached the end...
The Lebanese government had paid a lot of $$ (that they barely have) on the salvation of the passengers, and relations with Ethiopia have weakened as a result of all the accusations ministers made against the pilot- so I doubt they'd wanna salvage the rest of the plane... they would've done it by now.
On another superstitious note some beach-goers say they wanna stay out of the water in that area this summer as it's still full of "spirits"
We've become immune to finding out details of who was responsible for most big issues here in Lebanon. Never found out who killed a lot of politicians over the years for example...
It's not justice or more details of the crash the families r looking for, just compensation now- since justice wont bring their loved ones back. Of the five stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance) they've already reached the end...
The Lebanese government had paid a lot of $$ (that they barely have) on the salvation of the passengers, and relations with Ethiopia have weakened as a result of all the accusations ministers made against the pilot- so I doubt they'd wanna salvage the rest of the plane... they would've done it by now.
On another superstitious note some beach-goers say they wanna stay out of the water in that area this summer as it's still full of "spirits"
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Thanks, MadJam.
Apparently, lawyers are at work for single cases only (a Google translation):
Pas d'action collective des familles des victimes
Apparently, lawyers are at work for single cases only (a Google translation):
Pas d'action collective des familles des victimes
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Beirut Update
They're still on about the Pilot-
Lebanon news - NOW Lebanon -Report points at pilot error in Ethiopian jet crash
Report points at pilot error in Ethiopian jet crash
May 5, 2010
A preliminary report on the crash of an Ethiopian airliner in Lebanon in which all 90 people on board died earlier this year clearly points to pilot error, according to a source close to the probe.
"The accident was due to a series of errors on the part of the pilots who failed to take into account the signals emitted by the plane's instruments," the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told AFP.
"The report indicates that the plane was in good condition and points to error on the part of the pilot and co-pilot, both of whom had little experience with the jet," the source added.
The pilots erroneously believed that the jet was on automatic pilot and as a result failed to heed the alarm signals as the plane veered off course before crashing, he added.
Lebanese officials have previously said that data recovered from the plane's black box showed all instruments were working well until it plunged into the Mediterranean in a fierce storm.
The preliminary report, which has not been made public, indicates that both the pilot's and co-pilot's inexperience with the jet was "certainly behind the accident", the source said.
The pilot had one month of experience with the Boeing 737-800 and his co-pilot had four months experience, he added.
The probe into the crash is being led by the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses (BEA), France's accident investigation agency.
Lebanon news - NOW Lebanon -Report points at pilot error in Ethiopian jet crash
Report points at pilot error in Ethiopian jet crash
May 5, 2010
A preliminary report on the crash of an Ethiopian airliner in Lebanon in which all 90 people on board died earlier this year clearly points to pilot error, according to a source close to the probe.
"The accident was due to a series of errors on the part of the pilots who failed to take into account the signals emitted by the plane's instruments," the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told AFP.
"The report indicates that the plane was in good condition and points to error on the part of the pilot and co-pilot, both of whom had little experience with the jet," the source added.
The pilots erroneously believed that the jet was on automatic pilot and as a result failed to heed the alarm signals as the plane veered off course before crashing, he added.
Lebanese officials have previously said that data recovered from the plane's black box showed all instruments were working well until it plunged into the Mediterranean in a fierce storm.
The preliminary report, which has not been made public, indicates that both the pilot's and co-pilot's inexperience with the jet was "certainly behind the accident", the source said.
The pilot had one month of experience with the Boeing 737-800 and his co-pilot had four months experience, he added.
The probe into the crash is being led by the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses (BEA), France's accident investigation agency.
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According to a French version of the article, the captain asked the co-pilot (no mention who was PF and PM) to switch on the autopilot, which the co-pilot didn't do. Apparently the captain then seemed to act like AP was on while neither did notice that the AP indicator light was off.
Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Ethiopian/accident: erreur de pilotage
Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Ethiopian/accident: erreur de pilotage
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This is sounds very similar to the Kenyan Airlines crash. If my memory serves me correct the autopilot on the NG cannot be engaged while force is being exerted on the control column.
Possible senario: PF calls for A/P, PNF reaches over press a/p, p/f sees this confirms a/p whilst hand flying and without checking FMA (a/p has not engaged). PF let's go of controls.
Sound far fetched?
Seen it happen more than once.
Assy
Possible senario: PF calls for A/P, PNF reaches over press a/p, p/f sees this confirms a/p whilst hand flying and without checking FMA (a/p has not engaged). PF let's go of controls.
Sound far fetched?
Seen it happen more than once.
Assy
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One could assume that the 3-years delay in presentation of the Kenya accident report (albeit there is no clear recommendation with regard to training, technical changes etc. in there) was a contributing factor in this accident. What a shame. Trying to save a few faces led to 90 losses of live.
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threemiles, I doubt whether the delay in releasing the report into the Kenya Airlines crash would have had any effect on the Ethiopian crash. It would appear that loss of spatial awareness is becoming all too frequent these days. 
You could argue that the release of the Flash Airlines crash report has had no effect on the training of the Kenyan Airlines or Ethiopian Airlines crews or the Gulf Air crash, or the Adam Air crash.
Crews are not been properly trained to hand fly these aircraft; they are overly reliant on automation; they cannot even properly engage the autopilot or check whether it has engaged. Basic stuff that is the bed rock of aviation safety is being neglected and the cost is mounting.
You could argue that the release of the Flash Airlines crash report has had no effect on the training of the Kenyan Airlines or Ethiopian Airlines crews or the Gulf Air crash, or the Adam Air crash.
Crews are not been properly trained to hand fly these aircraft; they are overly reliant on automation; they cannot even properly engage the autopilot or check whether it has engaged. Basic stuff that is the bed rock of aviation safety is being neglected and the cost is mounting.
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The accident report makes chilling reading for any professional pilot who could envisage the situation inside the cockpit. As a slight aside, I am not quite certain how a 'broken' 737 with an inbuilt tendency to bank right was not sent straight back to the factory and exchanged for one that worked. Nonetheless, that was merely a factor in this tragic accident.
It is glaringly obvious that this Captain should never had held a command in any airline. The frightening combination of being over-bearing and unwilling to embrace SOPs is a recipe for disaster - and surprisingly enough that is what happened. This is the absolute worst of third world aviation on display and there can be no excuses. You have an unfit aircraft that would never be accepted in the west coupled to crew who take off without a clearance (an offence that would result in disciplinary action up to and including dismissal in any western airline). Combine this with utter professional incompetence from both pilots, particularly the captain and there is only one result. In fairness to the FO, it seems apparent he was trying to recover the situation at the end.
As an aside, when I first started flying and was a very junior FO on turboprops, I had to take control in a go-around from a similar-sounding captain. I found the experience absolutely terrifying at the time and it took me completely by surprise. We came very near to a crash and the captain, who is now retired, was someone who should never have been given a command at any time due to an inate lack of ability and an unwillingness to embrace SOPs. All of us are capable of being disoriented, and probably most of us have had it at one stage or other. What we must have is a cockpit atmosphere whereby the FO can pipe up to warn us of imminent disaster. That one issue is something that repeatedly turns out to be a factor in the overwhelming majority of non-western accidents. Until that cultural issue is addressed correctly, there will continue to be a huge difference in safety records between the west and the rest.
It is glaringly obvious that this Captain should never had held a command in any airline. The frightening combination of being over-bearing and unwilling to embrace SOPs is a recipe for disaster - and surprisingly enough that is what happened. This is the absolute worst of third world aviation on display and there can be no excuses. You have an unfit aircraft that would never be accepted in the west coupled to crew who take off without a clearance (an offence that would result in disciplinary action up to and including dismissal in any western airline). Combine this with utter professional incompetence from both pilots, particularly the captain and there is only one result. In fairness to the FO, it seems apparent he was trying to recover the situation at the end.
As an aside, when I first started flying and was a very junior FO on turboprops, I had to take control in a go-around from a similar-sounding captain. I found the experience absolutely terrifying at the time and it took me completely by surprise. We came very near to a crash and the captain, who is now retired, was someone who should never have been given a command at any time due to an inate lack of ability and an unwillingness to embrace SOPs. All of us are capable of being disoriented, and probably most of us have had it at one stage or other. What we must have is a cockpit atmosphere whereby the FO can pipe up to warn us of imminent disaster. That one issue is something that repeatedly turns out to be a factor in the overwhelming majority of non-western accidents. Until that cultural issue is addressed correctly, there will continue to be a huge difference in safety records between the west and the rest.
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@Plovett
I agree with your doubts, but still lessons learnt from other's mistake are the easiest way to avoid them to be repeated. If only they are properly communicated. Also true for Gulfair and armavia A320s.
Just frustrating.
I agree with your doubts, but still lessons learnt from other's mistake are the easiest way to avoid them to be repeated. If only they are properly communicated. Also true for Gulfair and armavia A320s.
Just frustrating.
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NSF,
You're refering to "the accident report" and to details such as "a 'broken' 737 with an inbuilt tendency to bank right", just as if you had seen, read or hold a copy of this report. Sorry, I might have missed something, but as far as I know, that report has not been made public. Do you have any special insight or am I getting that old ?
Ettore
You're refering to "the accident report" and to details such as "a 'broken' 737 with an inbuilt tendency to bank right", just as if you had seen, read or hold a copy of this report. Sorry, I might have missed something, but as far as I know, that report has not been made public. Do you have any special insight or am I getting that old ?
Ettore
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Ethiopian Press: Lebanon Withholds Crash Report
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Next phase of recovery work to start in the "near future"
According to the Odyssey Marine Exploration Q1 Financial Results, released on May 10th...
The aircraft search project already brought the company an increase of US$ 1,3 million in revenue, it says further.
Let's hope that a dog fight amongst underwriters will bring more facts to light than politics.
Source: Odyssey Marine Exploration Reports Improved First Quarter Financial Performance - MarketWatch
...The next phase of aircraft recovery work for the insurance underwriter is expected to begin in the near future.
Let's hope that a dog fight amongst underwriters will bring more facts to light than politics.
Source: Odyssey Marine Exploration Reports Improved First Quarter Financial Performance - MarketWatch
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The Continuing Serial Killer
Very very similar to the Kenyan Airlines crash. The autopilot on the 737NG cannot be engaged while force is being exerted on the control column.
Possible scenario: PF calls for A/P, PNF reaches over nd presses a/p engage button, p/f sees this to be a confirmation that he's now on a/p whilst hand flying and without checking FMA (a/p has not engaged). PF lets go of the controls.
Possible scenario: PF calls for A/P, PNF reaches over nd presses a/p engage button, p/f sees this to be a confirmation that he's now on a/p whilst hand flying and without checking FMA (a/p has not engaged). PF lets go of the controls.
.
"TOO LATE? Why?" Pilots looking up under increasing "g" and seeing an extreme attitude, find it hard to register what they are seeing and frequently roll the wrong way in their panic-stricken recovery attempt, consolidating their fate. Scenario happens more often than you hear about and only the fatalities make it to the front pages.
.
SOLUTION?
As mentioned by me many times before, the killer in this recurrent accident scenario (Flash Airlines, KQ507 etc) is the A/P push button. If you replaced it with the old style paddle-switch, it would not solenoid engage under g while banked and would just flop back to central without that satisfying tactile click of fully-deflected engagement/retention. Your alert of a failure to engage would then not only be the switch not remaining latched forward (flops back to central upright), it would also be a flashing glareshield alert light just below your forward line-of-sight (not hidden away on the FMA amongst a bunch of other annunciators).
.
Until Boeing fixes this it will continue to kill pax in their hundreds.
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UNCTUOUS, with respect, rubbish. The problem is more deep seated than whether there is a button or a switch to engage the autopilot.
The switch tells you by lighting up whether it is engaged. The PFD tells you whether it is engaged (and in both the Ethiopian and Kenyan airlines cases that is what the PF SHOULD have been looking at).
The problem is that crews cannot hand fly on instruments. Period.
It is time ICAO, the insurance companies and airlines recognised this and started to do something about the problem because it is killing too many too often.
The switch tells you by lighting up whether it is engaged. The PFD tells you whether it is engaged (and in both the Ethiopian and Kenyan airlines cases that is what the PF SHOULD have been looking at).
The problem is that crews cannot hand fly on instruments. Period.
It is time ICAO, the insurance companies and airlines recognised this and started to do something about the problem because it is killing too many too often.
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Until Boeing fixes this it will continue to kill pax in their hundreds.
The time is well overdue for regulators and operators to take a critical look at each individual up front. Religious mores and associated cultural blind belief act often in direct opposition to flight safety principles.
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You can't blame Boeing when dangerously incompetent individuals get promoted to the left seat. It has nothing to do with any manufacturer. The 737 was thoroughly tested by experienced test pilots to a degree you would hardly believe. Nothing wrong with the autopilot engaged buttons - it is the idiots that push them. The degree of pilot incompetency is downright alarming in many third world airlines but political correctness rules OK? and that means the real truth never gets out to the aviation media. There is SFA the manufacturers can doing anything about this once the aircraft are delivered to the new owners.
It would appear that basic flying skills have truly gone out the window with many of the younger set, to be replaced with 'slaves to the magenta line' and total automatics.
How very sad.
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Plovett...I disagree a bit here, unless you have flown with these individuals that's pretty blanket statement. To me its more of a complacency issues, IE A/P on with poor procedures to back it up and then the pilots in both these cases went on to other things they were more concerned about, the TRW's....And this leads to an upset from there was no recovery.
Last edited by filejw; 16th May 2010 at 16:17.