ethiopian airlines aircraft down near Beirut
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I fully agree with the statements regarding the paddle autopilot selector,
when in hard thunderstorm weather and heading out into pitch black darkness, the over-riding urge to get the autopilot engaged as soon as possible and go heads down to plot and plan around the severe weather is overwhelming, now with the old paddle autopilot selector it is very obvious to the pilot flying, under severe pressure to get it engaged, as to who is actually still flying the aircraft ie PF or "george" and until the autopilot paddle has latched magnetically. the PF would defenitely not loose control over the attitude of the aircraft as he is still in "command" of attitude/heading/speed etc,
with the newer autopilot selector the engagement is far to subtle, and in the "heat" of the moment of needing to get heads down and onto the radar etc it seems to have been shown on more than 2 occasions that the autopilot engagement was never accomplished, whislt the crew urgently diverted their attention to the task at hand of plot and plan around severe weather, thinking the autopilot was engaged.
it is all fine and well to talk of SOP's regarding the calls and the monitoring function around autopilot engagement sequence, but when faced with severe weather just after take-off, the crews mind is more focussed on avoiding weather safely, than being concerned if "all the i's have been dotted and t's been crossed" w.r.t. SOP.....and in these scenarios a tactile autopilot paddle engagement will defenitley relieve the pilot flying with rest assuredness that the autopilot is now in charge.....and even the Pilot non flying can see this due to paddle being held up and engaged.....no need to create a whole "broadway play of calls" to confirm autopilot engagement, and thus ...with respect Mr Boeing....the older system was beter.
when in hard thunderstorm weather and heading out into pitch black darkness, the over-riding urge to get the autopilot engaged as soon as possible and go heads down to plot and plan around the severe weather is overwhelming, now with the old paddle autopilot selector it is very obvious to the pilot flying, under severe pressure to get it engaged, as to who is actually still flying the aircraft ie PF or "george" and until the autopilot paddle has latched magnetically. the PF would defenitely not loose control over the attitude of the aircraft as he is still in "command" of attitude/heading/speed etc,
with the newer autopilot selector the engagement is far to subtle, and in the "heat" of the moment of needing to get heads down and onto the radar etc it seems to have been shown on more than 2 occasions that the autopilot engagement was never accomplished, whislt the crew urgently diverted their attention to the task at hand of plot and plan around severe weather, thinking the autopilot was engaged.
it is all fine and well to talk of SOP's regarding the calls and the monitoring function around autopilot engagement sequence, but when faced with severe weather just after take-off, the crews mind is more focussed on avoiding weather safely, than being concerned if "all the i's have been dotted and t's been crossed" w.r.t. SOP.....and in these scenarios a tactile autopilot paddle engagement will defenitley relieve the pilot flying with rest assuredness that the autopilot is now in charge.....and even the Pilot non flying can see this due to paddle being held up and engaged.....no need to create a whole "broadway play of calls" to confirm autopilot engagement, and thus ...with respect Mr Boeing....the older system was beter.
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UNCTUOUS
I for one, find your post insightful and totally agree with you. I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one.
Looking at what is known, I'd say your postulation is spot on.
Try as we might to preach FMA awareness, a certain number of pilots out there refuse to read aloud or confirm their FMA. No matter what paddle, switch or push button you have to engage an autopilot, the button pushing is fiction BUT the FMA is FACT.
Could there be a better ergodynamic design? Probably.
Until A and B come up with that better design we better continue to teach FMA, FMA, FMA.
good on ya
Willie
I for one, find your post insightful and totally agree with you. I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one.
Looking at what is known, I'd say your postulation is spot on.
Try as we might to preach FMA awareness, a certain number of pilots out there refuse to read aloud or confirm their FMA. No matter what paddle, switch or push button you have to engage an autopilot, the button pushing is fiction BUT the FMA is FACT.
Could there be a better ergodynamic design? Probably.
Until A and B come up with that better design we better continue to teach FMA, FMA, FMA.
good on ya
Willie
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Arrested terrorist suspect says ET-409 bombed
VOA: British intelligence agents reopened their investigation into the crash in March after reports that a terrorist suspect arrested in Saudi Arabia said Flight 409 had been destroyed by a bomb. The suspect said the device was similar to the one nearly used by Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab on Northwest Airlines Flight 253. Ethiopian Airlines said it was "interested" in the report.
That's shocking news. 
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Willie Everlearn,
So true!
We were taught 11 years back on A340/A330 training about "rumors and news". Rumor was the FCU selection and the News was the FMA. This best describes what Willie Everlearn is getting at! Nothing like setting a new altitude in the FCU and forgetting to pull or push, but FMA will tell you where you stand with your recent FCU request/rumor!
Try as we might to preach FMA awareness, a certain number of pilots out there refuse to read aloud or confirm their FMA. No matter what paddle, switch or push button you have to engage an autopilot, the button pushing is fiction BUT the FMA is FACT.
We were taught 11 years back on A340/A330 training about "rumors and news". Rumor was the FCU selection and the News was the FMA. This best describes what Willie Everlearn is getting at! Nothing like setting a new altitude in the FCU and forgetting to pull or push, but FMA will tell you where you stand with your recent FCU request/rumor!
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Humans do make mistakes, but to remove them from the controls in the airbus way is just seeing one side of the equation. Which is why boeing takes a considerably different approach to fly by wire controls.
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When I converted to "glass" one of the best things our instructor did was put tape over the FCU windows. That made us look at the PFD and see what we had selected and what the FMA thought we wanted to do.
It only took a few minutes to get it into even my dense skull and it has stuck to this day.
It only took a few minutes to get it into even my dense skull and it has stuck to this day.
When I converted to "glass" one of the best things our instructor did was put tape over the FCU windows. That made us look at the PFD and see what we had selected and what the FMA thought we wanted to do.
FCU windows = Opinion, FMA = FACT
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Hats off to Embraer.
On their EMB170/190 the AFCS button pushing provides no feedback, no green lights, nothing. The feedback is solely in the FMA. So, you have no choice but to refer to the FMA to ensure you have engaged the desired or required mode.
Willie
On their EMB170/190 the AFCS button pushing provides no feedback, no green lights, nothing. The feedback is solely in the FMA. So, you have no choice but to refer to the FMA to ensure you have engaged the desired or required mode.
Willie
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Investigation goes on, according to Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc
From Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. 2nd Quarter Report , dated Aug. 9th, '10:
ET 409 Project
On January 25, 2010, Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET 409 crashed into the Mediterranean Sea shortly after take-off from Beirut International Airport in Lebanon. Our search vessel, Ocean Alert, was operating near the area and had been using the Beirut port for fuel and supplies during these operations. In the weeks prior to the ET 409 crash, Odyssey management had been negotiating an agreement with the Government of Lebanon to partner in a deep-ocean project, so Lebanese officials were familiar with the capabilities of Odyssey and the Ocean Alert.
When ET 409 crashed, Lebanese authorities contacted Odyssey and asked the company to assist in the search and recovery efforts. The Alert returned to Beirut and was integrated into search operations that included the Lebanese Navy and Army, the US Navy (USS Ramage) and a German Navy ship, the Laboe.
Before the plane wreckage was discovered, the Government of Lebanon asked Odyssey to provide additional capabilities for more complex technical documentation of the site. Odyssey sent the Odyssey Explorer, which was based in the UK, to Lebanon to assist. We were paid $1.4 million for the work completed to-date by the Lebanese government. We presently have a signed agreement with the insurance company to create a photomosaic of the entire area of wreckage and debris which we are commencing in August 2010.
Odyssey is continuing negotiations with the Lebanese government for the original project. All operations on this project will be conducted in close coordination with the Government of Lebanon and will include official government observers on board Odyssey vessels.
Source: Odyssey Marine Exploration Reports Continued Improvement in Financial Performance for Second Quarter 2010 - MarketWatch
ET 409 Project
On January 25, 2010, Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET 409 crashed into the Mediterranean Sea shortly after take-off from Beirut International Airport in Lebanon. Our search vessel, Ocean Alert, was operating near the area and had been using the Beirut port for fuel and supplies during these operations. In the weeks prior to the ET 409 crash, Odyssey management had been negotiating an agreement with the Government of Lebanon to partner in a deep-ocean project, so Lebanese officials were familiar with the capabilities of Odyssey and the Ocean Alert.
When ET 409 crashed, Lebanese authorities contacted Odyssey and asked the company to assist in the search and recovery efforts. The Alert returned to Beirut and was integrated into search operations that included the Lebanese Navy and Army, the US Navy (USS Ramage) and a German Navy ship, the Laboe.
Before the plane wreckage was discovered, the Government of Lebanon asked Odyssey to provide additional capabilities for more complex technical documentation of the site. Odyssey sent the Odyssey Explorer, which was based in the UK, to Lebanon to assist. We were paid $1.4 million for the work completed to-date by the Lebanese government. We presently have a signed agreement with the insurance company to create a photomosaic of the entire area of wreckage and debris which we are commencing in August 2010.
Odyssey is continuing negotiations with the Lebanese government for the original project. All operations on this project will be conducted in close coordination with the Government of Lebanon and will include official government observers on board Odyssey vessels.
Last edited by ettore; 4th Sep 2010 at 00:50. Reason: Added Link to Source
Press update
This article just written in Lebanese press YaLibnan:
Pilot inexperience, exhaustion behind ET409 crash, report | Ya Libnan | World News Live from Lebanon
Pilot inexperience, exhaustion behind ET409 crash, report
On the eve of the anniversary of the crash in Lebanon of Ethiopian airlines flight ET409, LBC TV reported that the investigation of the incident continues and is being handled by the manufacturer with the participation of Ethiopia and Lebanon.
The Boeing 737 crashed on January 25, 2010 just after taking off from Beirut international airport . All 90 people on board died as a result of the crash.
According to LBC sources the investigation so far revealed that the crash occurred because of poor judgment by the Ethiopian Airlines management in choosing the crew, especially since the the captain and his copilot ,were exhausted as a result of working more than a hundred flight hours during that month, while according to international regulations they should not be working more than sixty flight hours.
Furthermore the captain and his copilot did not have enough experience in flying such a plane . According to the investigation 1500 flying hours are required to fly the 737 while neither the captain nor the copilot had more than 200 hours of experience.
The investigation so far confirms the preliminary report of May 2010 which revealed that “both the pilot’s and co-pilot’s inexperience with the jet was “certainly behind the accident”.
According to LBC sources the committee in charge of the investigation is planning to meet in the Ethiopian capital Addis Ababa on January 24 to start drafting the reported which is expected to take about 3 month to be completed
On the eve of the anniversary of the crash in Lebanon of Ethiopian airlines flight ET409, LBC TV reported that the investigation of the incident continues and is being handled by the manufacturer with the participation of Ethiopia and Lebanon.
The Boeing 737 crashed on January 25, 2010 just after taking off from Beirut international airport . All 90 people on board died as a result of the crash.
According to LBC sources the investigation so far revealed that the crash occurred because of poor judgment by the Ethiopian Airlines management in choosing the crew, especially since the the captain and his copilot ,were exhausted as a result of working more than a hundred flight hours during that month, while according to international regulations they should not be working more than sixty flight hours.
Furthermore the captain and his copilot did not have enough experience in flying such a plane . According to the investigation 1500 flying hours are required to fly the 737 while neither the captain nor the copilot had more than 200 hours of experience.
The investigation so far confirms the preliminary report of May 2010 which revealed that “both the pilot’s and co-pilot’s inexperience with the jet was “certainly behind the accident”.
According to LBC sources the committee in charge of the investigation is planning to meet in the Ethiopian capital Addis Ababa on January 24 to start drafting the reported which is expected to take about 3 month to be completed
Furthermore the captain and his copilot did not have enough experience in flying such a plane . According to the investigation 1500 flying hours are required to fly the 737 while neither the captain nor the copilot had more than 200 hours of experience.
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Surely they mean experience in type. It is impossible for the Captain of a 737 to have 200 hours total. I'm sure it is just the media getting it wrong again.
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Still neither the captain nor copilot having 200h on type is not reassuring... especially with their workload in the past month
I fear this will become more common, especially with MPLs in the right seat. Won't make much difference how many hours they have. Look at the Air India Express guy, he had plenty of time in type but was about as worthless as a yoke clip in an Airbus.
In the interests of balance this response from Ethiopian Airlines:
Airline Industry and Aviation Safety News from Flightglobal
Ethiopian Airlines has blasted as "unfounded and speculative" reports which suggest that the crash of a Boeing 737-800 a year ago was caused by pilot exhaustion and inexperience.
Flight ET409 crashed into the Mediterranean Sea shortly after departing Beirut for Addis Ababa on 25 January 2010, killing 82 passengers and eight crew members.
Lebanese media have claimed the crash was a result of pilot exhaustion and, controversially, inexperience. Ethiopian says it "refutes the repeated attempts" to "sway the public opinion by publishing unfounded and speculative information" over the cause of the crash.
Ethiopian adds that it "condemns the intentional effort by some Lebanese media to delude the public by disseminating baseless information".
Flight ET409 crashed into the Mediterranean Sea shortly after departing Beirut for Addis Ababa on 25 January 2010, killing 82 passengers and eight crew members.
Lebanese media have claimed the crash was a result of pilot exhaustion and, controversially, inexperience. Ethiopian says it "refutes the repeated attempts" to "sway the public opinion by publishing unfounded and speculative information" over the cause of the crash.
Ethiopian adds that it "condemns the intentional effort by some Lebanese media to delude the public by disseminating baseless information".
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One Year Later: Reuters Round-Up of the Situation
A good overview, with some approximation, but not that much wild speculation. i.e. worth reading :
allAfrica.com: Ethiopia: Year Later Surviving Families of ET409 Crash Remain in Dark
allAfrica.com: Ethiopia: Year Later Surviving Families of ET409 Crash Remain in Dark
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Ethiopian Airlines Statement
I find the airline's statement interesting for what it doesn't say.
It does not attempt to refute the figures given for flying hours that month and hours on type.
It does not attempt to refute the figures given for flying hours that month and hours on type.