Ryanair off piste at PIK (23 Dec 2009)
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For the benefit of "Alanmac" and anyone else who found my remark about the FR crew standing around the bus stop looking like "Albanian refugees" arrogant.
As a lad I remember seeing the Pan Am Atlantic Barons coming out of the limo at PIK having hotaced at Turnberry Hotel (where the staff knew them by name)As they strolled out to their 707's I recal thinking they looked pretty cool .(I was just a lad!) I was merely highlighting the difference to todays scene.
If that's arrogance so be it, but I feel it's more a sad reflection of how times have changed for the Airline Pilot.
Clear enough?
As a lad I remember seeing the Pan Am Atlantic Barons coming out of the limo at PIK having hotaced at Turnberry Hotel (where the staff knew them by name)As they strolled out to their 707's I recal thinking they looked pretty cool .(I was just a lad!) I was merely highlighting the difference to todays scene.
If that's arrogance so be it, but I feel it's more a sad reflection of how times have changed for the Airline Pilot.
Clear enough?
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Ah ...
perhaps that explains the 3500 + meter @ 50 feet thing ! they just got runway 13 & 31 confused ! poor lambs ....
Talk this one into the ground guys and girls ... see my previous !
If the management of this airline thinks they can " sustain a major hull loss" as they claim .. the culture is going the right way to achieve it.
Talk this one into the ground guys and girls ... see my previous !
If the management of this airline thinks they can " sustain a major hull loss" as they claim .. the culture is going the right way to achieve it.
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I know this is sticking my head above the parapet but here goes..
I do fly Ryanair and found them to be a responsible airline regarding safety. Booking a flight with them is like being mugged and check-in is an abysmal experience but regards to flight safety I have no problem.
There were some posts referrring to landing parameters and the various interviews without coffee which may result from those parameters being exceeded. This leads to the question that are the parameters set at such a close limit to normal practice that an inconsequential breach is acted upon or are the parameters set that unless something exceptional is happening then those parameters should not be breached?
MD
I do fly Ryanair and found them to be a responsible airline regarding safety. Booking a flight with them is like being mugged and check-in is an abysmal experience but regards to flight safety I have no problem.
There were some posts referrring to landing parameters and the various interviews without coffee which may result from those parameters being exceeded. This leads to the question that are the parameters set at such a close limit to normal practice that an inconsequential breach is acted upon or are the parameters set that unless something exceptional is happening then those parameters should not be breached?
MD
To echo above and reiterate what I said before, PIK was in the worst condition of any UK runway I have operated into in the last week. By a long shot.
If you haven't been there in the last week keep your opinions to yourselves. And that includes MS Flight Sim.
If you haven't been there in the last week keep your opinions to yourselves. And that includes MS Flight Sim.
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Perhaps one of you good folk can clear my mind over one small thing I'm puzzled over.
If the aircraft has slipped on the taxiway then would not the braking action figures, published or otherwise, be irelevant. So far however I seen some reports saying this is a runway overshoot and others say it's a taxiway incident
If the taxiways were not kept to the same standard as the runway then its not a surprise that this incident has happened. (Don't suppose we can call it Murphys law nowadays?)
If the aircraft has slipped on the taxiway then would not the braking action figures, published or otherwise, be irelevant. So far however I seen some reports saying this is a runway overshoot and others say it's a taxiway incident
If the taxiways were not kept to the same standard as the runway then its not a surprise that this incident has happened. (Don't suppose we can call it Murphys law nowadays?)
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Landed at PIK yesterday, a few hours after the incident. 10mm of slush on the runway. Taxiway deposits were the worst I've ever seen. Autobrake max and full reverse had us off 31 by Kilo. Lack of braking action info was indeed frustrating and the snowtam didn't really help much either.
Unlike some of the people who put the word "fact" at the end of sentences, usually in caps, that is actual fact... I can understand entirely why the crew concerned may have felt the conditions were better than they were.
Unlike some of the people who put the word "fact" at the end of sentences, usually in caps, that is actual fact... I can understand entirely why the crew concerned may have felt the conditions were better than they were.
Last edited by D O Guerrero; 24th Dec 2009 at 10:09.
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At EMA on the 21st(?) only 23m of runway width had been cleared. Two Easyjet aircraft waited 2 hours for a minimum of 30m to be cleared however two Ryanair's departed and one landed before this operation had been completed. Now the AOC may be different but the laws of physics do not differenciate. I would be most interested to hear the Captains justification for departing from a contaminated runway. Ryanairs approach to risk is questionable.
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no other major reports in the press of other operators aircraft skidding off on landing or turning off in the UK during this recent snow / ice except Ryanair.
Would the UK CAA do anything to the operator or the airport?
Would the UK CAA do anything to the operator or the airport?
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Ryanairs approach to risk is questionable.
The rules are very clear on this, we require a minimum of 30m to be cleared. If what you claim is true, then the crew were either ignorant of company rules or felt they didn't apply to them. There would have been no case to answer for had they stayed put, as I did at another airport this week.
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Turbine - it depends who is found to be at fault during the investigation. You're right that no other operators seem to have had any similar incidents this week, but then that is no reason whatsoever to assume that any one party is to blame. Perhaps you should just keep quiet until some facts are established?
I'd also echo Telstars comments - we are specifically not allowed to land or takeoff if the cleared width is less than 30m. I would be very surprised to find that RYR aircraft were using a runway with 23m cleared width. If it is true, then 3 Captains in the space of 2 hours decided to disregard company SOPs. In my experience, that sounds unlikely. If it did happen, they are likely to face some serious questions without the benefit of tea or biscuits, as no doubt Flap15 will have raised a Chirp on the subject.
I'd also echo Telstars comments - we are specifically not allowed to land or takeoff if the cleared width is less than 30m. I would be very surprised to find that RYR aircraft were using a runway with 23m cleared width. If it is true, then 3 Captains in the space of 2 hours decided to disregard company SOPs. In my experience, that sounds unlikely. If it did happen, they are likely to face some serious questions without the benefit of tea or biscuits, as no doubt Flap15 will have raised a Chirp on the subject.
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I suppose one must accept that lessons will be learned - an oft said cliché but oft ignored. From experience I have always been 'surprised' at FR's taxi speeds (I won't offer an estimate) but IMHO it is generally too fast.
ONE scenario, it would be fair to state, is that speed was involved as was taxiway condition followed by a slide.
Will lessons be learned? If it happens again = NO - on the other hand?
ONE scenario, it would be fair to state, is that speed was involved as was taxiway condition followed by a slide.
Will lessons be learned? If it happens again = NO - on the other hand?
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lets call a spade a shovel here......excessive taxi speeds in freezing temps, with ice covered taxi ways, contaminated rwys etc will award anyone an automatic entry into an off piste event.
I was in the same neck of the woods yesterday, it was treacherous but so is all of europe and we crawled around......no drama.....jezuz the thoughts of heading up to giggistown for a friendly de brief with the boss is the stuff of horror movies.
I was in the same neck of the woods yesterday, it was treacherous but so is all of europe and we crawled around......no drama.....jezuz the thoughts of heading up to giggistown for a friendly de brief with the boss is the stuff of horror movies.
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Flaps15,
Ryanairs approach to risk is not questionable. I landed in an MD-11 in SNN early Monday morning. Shortly afterwards a NOTAM was issued that the braking action was poor to nil. An OMNI DC-10 diverted to DUB. Eventually the braking action became good and the MD-11 departed. A few hours later, I paxed back to STN on Ryanair. We boarded and sat on the aircraft doors closed for an hour and a half because the braking action was once again below limits. Eventually there was some cloud cover, the temp rose and after several runway treatments we departed along with many others when the numbers became good. We were the second one out I believe after an EI A320 to LHR.
Ryanairs approach to risk is not questionable. I landed in an MD-11 in SNN early Monday morning. Shortly afterwards a NOTAM was issued that the braking action was poor to nil. An OMNI DC-10 diverted to DUB. Eventually the braking action became good and the MD-11 departed. A few hours later, I paxed back to STN on Ryanair. We boarded and sat on the aircraft doors closed for an hour and a half because the braking action was once again below limits. Eventually there was some cloud cover, the temp rose and after several runway treatments we departed along with many others when the numbers became good. We were the second one out I believe after an EI A320 to LHR.
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EMA was not contaminated, just slippery outside of 23m. The Easyjet guys didn't want to go,it's their call. Ryanair operate to many serious cold weather destinations. Crews are trained to take off and land on slippery and/or contimated surfaces.
If the runway is slippery from 23-46 metres and you have the figures you can go. QED.
This not passing BA is crimnal, UK CAA need to be taken to task.
If the runway is slippery from 23-46 metres and you have the figures you can go. QED.
This not passing BA is crimnal, UK CAA need to be taken to task.
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Missing Recordings
No doubt whatever happened here will be established in due course. However I just wonder about the preservation of evidence in this and other incidents.
For example I am still puzzled by the reports of the Ryanair daytime flight from Niederrhain to Ciampino airport in September 2005. This is the one where the Polish PF was newly-bereaved and the PNF was was relatively inexperienced. They failed to land in a thunderstorm at Ciampino and eventually touched down at Pescaro.
Here,the Irish Times reported- The pilots " failed to preserve the flight’s records in the aircraft’s black boxes as required by Ryanair regulation".
Is that possible?
For example I am still puzzled by the reports of the Ryanair daytime flight from Niederrhain to Ciampino airport in September 2005. This is the one where the Polish PF was newly-bereaved and the PNF was was relatively inexperienced. They failed to land in a thunderstorm at Ciampino and eventually touched down at Pescaro.
Here,the Irish Times reported- The pilots " failed to preserve the flight’s records in the aircraft’s black boxes as required by Ryanair regulation".
Is that possible?