Ryanair off piste at PIK (23 Dec 2009)
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AYRMAN. Ryanair have set speed limits for all phases of taxying. If you do actually see a particular aircraft taxying dangerously you should contact the company. If your claims are correct they would deal with the crew concerned imediatley. However, as all ryanair aircraft are fitted with monitoring equipment that check and report directly to the company if the crew exceed certain parimiters, I think you may be wrong.
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think calling us clowns is a bit over the top.
stands 5,9 follow ops for parking, 1a,1,2,3,4 follow the agnes system and follow the lead in lines. im pretty close to the action and dnt remember seeing the ryanairs cutting across the stands to park up
stands 5,9 follow ops for parking, 1a,1,2,3,4 follow the agnes system and follow the lead in lines. im pretty close to the action and dnt remember seeing the ryanairs cutting across the stands to park up
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your right about a few things at pik, il give you that, but the caa are up just as much as any other airport, and know doubt faults are found, but theres always a time scale to rectify the problems. you could go to other airports and find problems! better to get behind and support your local airport 350 people work there and it brings millions of pounds to the local economy.
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AYRMAN. Ryanair have set speed limits for all phases of taxying. If you do actually see a particular aircraft taxying dangerously you should contact the company. If your claims are correct they would deal with the crew concerned imediatley. However, as all ryanair aircraft are fitted with monitoring equipment that check and report directly to the company if the crew exceed certain parimiters, I think you may be wrong.
Last edited by ManaAdaSystem; 25th Jan 2010 at 07:00.
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Brakes to Park
your quote
"You are one of he guys who was so hacked off at EZY that you resigned on the basis of a job offer from an airline that never ever got off the ground (NOW) (or was it THEN) and JP made it clear to you and all of your fellow deluded compatriots that you would never be welcome back at EZY so you ended up with the Harps. Not exactly there through choice are you?"
Brakes to Park The most senior pilot to resign from EZY, in the NOW debacle was in fact the base captain of Luton at the time AL. He was also involved in A lot of the startup/recruitment at NOW.
Guess where he is NOW (excuse the pun)
Working for easyjet.
So your statement is incorrect.
your quote
"You are one of he guys who was so hacked off at EZY that you resigned on the basis of a job offer from an airline that never ever got off the ground (NOW) (or was it THEN) and JP made it clear to you and all of your fellow deluded compatriots that you would never be welcome back at EZY so you ended up with the Harps. Not exactly there through choice are you?"
Brakes to Park The most senior pilot to resign from EZY, in the NOW debacle was in fact the base captain of Luton at the time AL. He was also involved in A lot of the startup/recruitment at NOW.
Guess where he is NOW (excuse the pun)
Working for easyjet.
So your statement is incorrect.
Hmmmyeah
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Report from October 2010 AAIB Bulletin
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...HD%2010-10.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...HD%2010-10.pdf
Dunno if I actually mentioned, but I was actually on that flight.
No great drama really, just a bit skiddy at the end of the runway.
Cabin crew were excellent.No panic whatsoever.
There they all were at the bottom of the steps, selling us tickets for the bus to the terminal
No great drama really, just a bit skiddy at the end of the runway.
Cabin crew were excellent.No panic whatsoever.
There they all were at the bottom of the steps, selling us tickets for the bus to the terminal
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I too thought that was odd. Reverse is more effective at high speed and when landing on a runway with questionable braking action it should be your first port of call to actually start slowing down. Of course reverse thrust on contaminated surfaces can also present directional control problems.
What I though particularly alarming was that after application of manual brakes at 42knots the aircraft then "slid" for 30 seconds only reducing to 24knots before vacating the end. In my book that's practically nil braking action.
It shows that even if you've killed most of your inertia in the initial part of the landing roll it can still go horribly wrong very quickly.
A4
What I though particularly alarming was that after application of manual brakes at 42knots the aircraft then "slid" for 30 seconds only reducing to 24knots before vacating the end. In my book that's practically nil braking action.
It shows that even if you've killed most of your inertia in the initial part of the landing roll it can still go horribly wrong very quickly.
A4
On the particular incident, I can see how this crew got snookered into waiting a bit long to begin stopping (You have to go to that last taxiway anyway, RV thrust may impart its own direction control problems, etc.)
On a technical note, if the ATIS was reporting the opposite RWY in use, is it possible that TO thrust from previous departures on 13 has polished or "zambonied" the area around the numbers to a higher slickness than the rest of the surface?
On a technical note, if the ATIS was reporting the opposite RWY in use, is it possible that TO thrust from previous departures on 13 has polished or "zambonied" the area around the numbers to a higher slickness than the rest of the surface?
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Yes, itīs a typo, reverse thrust was cancelled at 60 knots. The training that is mentioned at the end of the report includes demonstrating the difference in time it takes to accuire full reverse thrust when the thrust reversers have been stowed compared to if just reduced to idle. Canīt remember the exact figure but in the region of 12 seconds longer. A pretty long time when you are ice skating down the runway and the green stuff at the end is approaching.
Also interesting to read that the crew gets "kudos" for pulling the CVR. I guess the threatening letter that came out a while back "do it or you are fired" had some effect...
Also interesting to read that the crew gets "kudos" for pulling the CVR. I guess the threatening letter that came out a while back "do it or you are fired" had some effect...
In reading the report, I empathize with the crew. (Are such conditions frequent at Prestwick/Glasgow, etc?) Pulling the CVR breaker was the right thing to do.
Canadian winters do occasionally provide skating rinks for runways and one never knows which section of the runway will be the most entertaining, even with good runway condition reports and urea or sand treatments.
While the current SOP is to select only idle reverse in order to save fuel and maintenance costs, a handful of reverse early in the landing roll and held, as Davies says, "until the engines object", (keeping in mind that high reverse at low speeds can swiftly reduce visibility to zero on snow- covered surfaces), with medium autobraking for evenness of application and a groundspeed of dead-slow, (< 5kts) as early as possible commensurate with directional control, can be required to keep the aircraft on the paved surface.
Obviously, in poor conditions, crosswind limits are very low.
Even then braking action can actually be nil, especially at the end of the runway where the surface underneath the light coating of innocent snow can be more slippery than the landing surface just used. Ten knots of groundspeed can be too much; also, the aircraft can "sail" with the wind should there be any, while taxiing or maneuvering on the ramp, especially if weather-cocked and presenting the entire fuselage to the wind. Tail-mounted engines in high-reverse settings could act as a drag-chute and pull the a/c downwind, so again, one had to be careful.
There was an excellent two-day "Winter Ops Conference" put on by the Air Canada Pilots Association last year around this time in which these issues, among many, including the Canadian CRFI, (Canadian Runway Friction Index - pronounced 'surfee'), were discussed.
PJ2
Canadian winters do occasionally provide skating rinks for runways and one never knows which section of the runway will be the most entertaining, even with good runway condition reports and urea or sand treatments.
While the current SOP is to select only idle reverse in order to save fuel and maintenance costs, a handful of reverse early in the landing roll and held, as Davies says, "until the engines object", (keeping in mind that high reverse at low speeds can swiftly reduce visibility to zero on snow- covered surfaces), with medium autobraking for evenness of application and a groundspeed of dead-slow, (< 5kts) as early as possible commensurate with directional control, can be required to keep the aircraft on the paved surface.
Obviously, in poor conditions, crosswind limits are very low.
Even then braking action can actually be nil, especially at the end of the runway where the surface underneath the light coating of innocent snow can be more slippery than the landing surface just used. Ten knots of groundspeed can be too much; also, the aircraft can "sail" with the wind should there be any, while taxiing or maneuvering on the ramp, especially if weather-cocked and presenting the entire fuselage to the wind. Tail-mounted engines in high-reverse settings could act as a drag-chute and pull the a/c downwind, so again, one had to be careful.
There was an excellent two-day "Winter Ops Conference" put on by the Air Canada Pilots Association last year around this time in which these issues, among many, including the Canadian CRFI, (Canadian Runway Friction Index - pronounced 'surfee'), were discussed.
PJ2
Last edited by PJ2; 17th Oct 2010 at 16:22. Reason: syntax
I landed on 31R at Kennedy one crystal clear CAVU night (DC-10). I couldn't understand why the DC-8 ahead of me had had to make a go around. The weather was so nice but cold.
When my F/O (he was driving) hit the brakes, there was absolutely no result. We stayed in reverse until we were moving no more. The cockpit was just over the grass at the end but we were just able to turn off the runway.
Having changed to "Point 9", we were told to take a left on the Outer etc. etc.
We slid past the Outer still in full reverse and made it on to the Inner.
I complained bitterly and was told by "Point 9" that the last five aircraft hadn't made the Outer either. When I suggested that they stopped everything moving for a while and got some grit out there, I was almost treated like a heretic.
The reason that every second aircraft was going around (like the DC-8 ahead of me) was due to the fact that the aeroplane that was already on the runway couldn't get off fast enough.
I have also very, very nearly gone off the end in Germany from a CAT II approach in heavy snow. The preceding aircraft (a B727) landed with no problems around 10 minutes ahead of me, but by the time I got there, the braking action had gone to "nil".
So, it only takes minutes for runway conditions to change.
By the way, there is actually no such thing as "nil" braking action but that is a totally different topic. (The figures produced are usually based on a BA of 0.05).
When my F/O (he was driving) hit the brakes, there was absolutely no result. We stayed in reverse until we were moving no more. The cockpit was just over the grass at the end but we were just able to turn off the runway.
Having changed to "Point 9", we were told to take a left on the Outer etc. etc.
We slid past the Outer still in full reverse and made it on to the Inner.
I complained bitterly and was told by "Point 9" that the last five aircraft hadn't made the Outer either. When I suggested that they stopped everything moving for a while and got some grit out there, I was almost treated like a heretic.
The reason that every second aircraft was going around (like the DC-8 ahead of me) was due to the fact that the aeroplane that was already on the runway couldn't get off fast enough.
I have also very, very nearly gone off the end in Germany from a CAT II approach in heavy snow. The preceding aircraft (a B727) landed with no problems around 10 minutes ahead of me, but by the time I got there, the braking action had gone to "nil".
So, it only takes minutes for runway conditions to change.
By the way, there is actually no such thing as "nil" braking action but that is a totally different topic. (The figures produced are usually based on a BA of 0.05).
JW411;
"...like a heretic."....Kennedy ATC is like that. We were behind Eastern 66 when he went in short of 22L, after a number of go-arounds and urgent requests to change runways. They did....
Yes, I've heard that and understand - it shuts the airport down...but if an airplane will continue to move under idle thrust and the only way to stop it, (providing there isn't a 10kt+ wind) is to shut one, both or all down, regardless of the term, there isn't any braking action...
- yep, another topic!
PJ2
"...like a heretic."....Kennedy ATC is like that. We were behind Eastern 66 when he went in short of 22L, after a number of go-arounds and urgent requests to change runways. They did....
By the way, there is actually no such thing as "nil" braking action but that is a totally different topic. (The figures produced are usually based on a BA of 0.05).
- yep, another topic!PJ2
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Another Urban Myth, bonuses to be made. If only!
A long time ago, when avaition was still a proffesion, and not a job, and pilots didn't rubbish one another because of the airline they worked for, no more than they do for the colour of their skin in this day and age, British Airways very kindly produced a monthly digest, a summary, of all the incident reports for the previous month and published them to all who wished to subscribe. Most of the newer operators of various types, the B737 being one of the most popular at the time, were given the benefit of the vast accumulated knowledge gained from the British Airways fountain.
The booklet ran to several pages, BA having maybe 80 or 90 of the type at that time. Faults, delays, incidents, MEL queries, even accidents were all published for the greater good of the industry. Sadly, this is no longer the case. Secrecy and corporate responsibility steer our behaivour in this litiginous age. Publicity from these incidents, when seen by the general public, make for bad publicity, hence, they are published no more.
I mention this only in light of the fact that Ryanair, which the vast majority of proffesional pilots who actually know what they are talking about, are considered to be in the forefront of pilot and cabin crew training (they do so much of it!) and have procedures equally as good if not better than the industry standard SOP's.
Ryaniar now operate over 250 B737-800 all over Europe, more than the total BA fleet. If Ryanair were to produce a booklet similar to BAs it would be ridiculed and derided at every opportunity both here and in the press, so what has changed? Is it any wonder that any incident in this age of instant news, Twitter, i-phones, Blackberrys etc. that all and every mishap is reported as a major accident?
To those of you who are of the opinion that Ryaniar is a whack job with flakey pilots and retarded engineering staff, I would ask you in all honesty; when you are made redundant and the only airline to offer you employment at your local airport is Ryanair, will you say no to Ģ95k a year and queue for your Ģ5k of benefits?
Perspective is only real if you open your eyes and look at all aspects of the situation. Some onlookers here seem to be looking at Ryanair from every angle but the corrct one, face on. They see optional extras as rip-offs, on line check-in as a scam, free seating as abattoir-like and 20 minute turn-arounds as simply unacheivable so they must be unsafe etc.etc. when most if not all these things will become the norm in the furure. It might not be what you would like in an ideal world but this is reality, and sliding off the runway at taxi speed on the ice is a real life event that happens to everyone, or could be!
If such an event occurs in your future flying carreer, I trust you will come back here and apologise. But hey, stupid of me to think such an event would ever happen to you!
A long time ago, when avaition was still a proffesion, and not a job, and pilots didn't rubbish one another because of the airline they worked for, no more than they do for the colour of their skin in this day and age, British Airways very kindly produced a monthly digest, a summary, of all the incident reports for the previous month and published them to all who wished to subscribe. Most of the newer operators of various types, the B737 being one of the most popular at the time, were given the benefit of the vast accumulated knowledge gained from the British Airways fountain.
The booklet ran to several pages, BA having maybe 80 or 90 of the type at that time. Faults, delays, incidents, MEL queries, even accidents were all published for the greater good of the industry. Sadly, this is no longer the case. Secrecy and corporate responsibility steer our behaivour in this litiginous age. Publicity from these incidents, when seen by the general public, make for bad publicity, hence, they are published no more.
I mention this only in light of the fact that Ryanair, which the vast majority of proffesional pilots who actually know what they are talking about, are considered to be in the forefront of pilot and cabin crew training (they do so much of it!) and have procedures equally as good if not better than the industry standard SOP's.
Ryaniar now operate over 250 B737-800 all over Europe, more than the total BA fleet. If Ryanair were to produce a booklet similar to BAs it would be ridiculed and derided at every opportunity both here and in the press, so what has changed? Is it any wonder that any incident in this age of instant news, Twitter, i-phones, Blackberrys etc. that all and every mishap is reported as a major accident?
To those of you who are of the opinion that Ryaniar is a whack job with flakey pilots and retarded engineering staff, I would ask you in all honesty; when you are made redundant and the only airline to offer you employment at your local airport is Ryanair, will you say no to Ģ95k a year and queue for your Ģ5k of benefits?
Perspective is only real if you open your eyes and look at all aspects of the situation. Some onlookers here seem to be looking at Ryanair from every angle but the corrct one, face on. They see optional extras as rip-offs, on line check-in as a scam, free seating as abattoir-like and 20 minute turn-arounds as simply unacheivable so they must be unsafe etc.etc. when most if not all these things will become the norm in the furure. It might not be what you would like in an ideal world but this is reality, and sliding off the runway at taxi speed on the ice is a real life event that happens to everyone, or could be!
If such an event occurs in your future flying carreer, I trust you will come back here and apologise. But hey, stupid of me to think such an event would ever happen to you!
Last edited by rubik101; 18th Oct 2010 at 06:12.
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Just a side show from the CAA... From this NOTAL about winter operations on runways...Para 6
So clearly there was no ice on the runway at PIK.... CAA... Aghhh
CAA policy is that Continuous Friction Measuring Equipment (CFME) should not be used where snow/slush conditions are present, as readings on wet snow and slush are unreliable from existing equipment; there is no correlation between CFME readings and aircraft braking performance. Compacted snow and ice can be assessed for a level of grip and aircraft flight manuals contain performance computations that use such readings. To date, no evidence has been presented that these conditions were encountered last winter, and they are rarely experienced in the United Kingdom. Therefore, the focus of attention should be on wet or loose contamination, which should include assessment and reporting followed by, where possible, clearance of contaminants and return to service.