Ryanair off piste at PIK (23 Dec 2009)
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captplatstation I think it's because ryanair are regarded as 'being a bit dodgy' and American Airlines probably aren't.
People unfortunately still associate all this race to the bottom of the industry terms and conditions and service with safety and thus when ryanair have any kind of event like this people love to shout "I told you so".
If Ryanair wasn't such a shonky outfit to work for then I'm sure people wouldn't make such a big deal about it.
The other reason of course is that this is a U.K. based website and the accident happened in the U.K.
People unfortunately still associate all this race to the bottom of the industry terms and conditions and service with safety and thus when ryanair have any kind of event like this people love to shout "I told you so".
If Ryanair wasn't such a shonky outfit to work for then I'm sure people wouldn't make such a big deal about it.
The other reason of course is that this is a U.K. based website and the accident happened in the U.K.
Ryanair Taxi Speeds
When I last worked with RYR, as part of ground crew, I did once overhear the priceless ATC transmission : "Ryanair xxx, you are now clear to hurtle on to stand 1A". Made me snigger....
The old -200 series could regularly be heard shutting down no.1 engine at approximately 2 stands from the final parking position, with enough kinetic energy to make it on to stand and still have some 'bounce' in the nosewheel oleo as it came to a stop. Not scientific evidence of fast taxiing, but we all know what they were/are like.
The old -200 series could regularly be heard shutting down no.1 engine at approximately 2 stands from the final parking position, with enough kinetic energy to make it on to stand and still have some 'bounce' in the nosewheel oleo as it came to a stop. Not scientific evidence of fast taxiing, but we all know what they were/are like.
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Despite the number of thread pages, I thought it was telling that the American incident has had slightly more views than the Ryanair incident (as I write). Sorry for the off-topic.
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but we all know what they were/are like.
We have a strict set of SOPs and procedures that we all (aside from a few - that even the great and glorious BA have) stick to.
I am sick and tired of the utter ****e that is banded around this bloody website from prats who know
all about what it is like to operate a jet airliner and the potential traps and pitfalls that wait around the corner for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US IN EVERY SINGLE AIRLINE. Okay so today we've had a mishap, could have happened to anyone but I'm very glad ours turned out the way it did in comparison to what occured to AA in the Carribean this morning. But hey - they work for a legacy carrier so what ever the outcome of that investigation they should be paraded as heros and spit on the likes of us plebs that work for Ryanair.
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That was no gentle slide off the edge of the icy tarmac ... it crossed and bedded into to a considerable distance of outfield.
Whilst I doubt that a crew would willingly make that kind of excursion, surely the underlying culture has to come under examination ?
Statements from the CEO : you will be fired if you do what has been revealed in a report.
Subplot : people are scared of being fired by not turning up for work after their son has died, ( and has an incident).
Presumably and anecdotally that "culture" extends well beyond the immediate incidents referred to.
I witnessed another incident recently with an FR aircraft leaving the departure end of a 3355 m runway at a height of less than 50 feet with what sounded like a very late selection of TOGA ... intersections E and F confused in the rush perhaps ?
That one appears nowhere but my whole crew saw it.
Whilst I doubt that a crew would willingly make that kind of excursion, surely the underlying culture has to come under examination ?
Statements from the CEO : you will be fired if you do what has been revealed in a report.
Subplot : people are scared of being fired by not turning up for work after their son has died, ( and has an incident).
Presumably and anecdotally that "culture" extends well beyond the immediate incidents referred to.
I witnessed another incident recently with an FR aircraft leaving the departure end of a 3355 m runway at a height of less than 50 feet with what sounded like a very late selection of TOGA ... intersections E and F confused in the rush perhaps ?
That one appears nowhere but my whole crew saw it.
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I don't know why all these 'other airline' pilots are making disparaging comments about ryanair, when there is clearly nothing at all dodgy about them, to be sure, to be sure.
All these off runway excursions they have are NOTHING to do with ryanair in any way whatsoever and could happen to anyone!
All these off runway excursions they have are NOTHING to do with ryanair in any way whatsoever and could happen to anyone!
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Anyone ...
who is not under undue commercial pressure every moment of their working lives...
Everyone who is in da biz has it, but most have the facility to :
A) switch it off, because today is not a normal day.
or
B) Tell em off because today is a very abnormal day.
Consider Pavlov and his dog perhaps ?
Basic airmanship countermands company dogma in conditions which demand it, if one is programmed any other way, one may find oneself on the grass with no good explanation to offer the people who state that they will support you.
Then the buck stops with a very sudden jolt.
Everyone who is in da biz has it, but most have the facility to :
A) switch it off, because today is not a normal day.
or
B) Tell em
off because today is a very abnormal day.Consider Pavlov and his dog perhaps ?
Basic airmanship countermands company dogma in conditions which demand it, if one is programmed any other way, one may find oneself on the grass with no good explanation to offer the people who state that they will support you.
Then the buck stops with a very sudden jolt.
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3800hr Line training captains teaching 250hr co-pilots who become 3800hr line training captains. The experience drain in ryanair continues. When you couple this to fatigue and pressure it's only a matter of time before the worst happens. The only thing saving them is a very good set of SOP's.
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from perusal of the pic supplied like a previous poster said, it just did'nt slide off the taxiway.....lot of inertia there.
A worthy competitor for a ploughing competition.
A worthy competitor for a ploughing competition.
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Runway length at Prestwick is 9,800 feet. Plenty to slow up in for a 737, even with an icy runway. The crew were trying to turn off the runway while going too fast.
I had a similar situation in an A330. Tried to turn off a runway at the fast turnoff in heavy rain. Turned the nose wheel steering at low speed but the aircraft kept straight ahead. I slowed down to an absolute crawl and carefully turned off at the end of the runway. Simples.
I had a similar situation in an A330. Tried to turn off a runway at the fast turnoff in heavy rain. Turned the nose wheel steering at low speed but the aircraft kept straight ahead. I slowed down to an absolute crawl and carefully turned off at the end of the runway. Simples.
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Whats it like to never make mistakes...?
If this was any other carrier you'd all be saying what a great job the pilots did as noone was hurt - as previous "incidents" have shown.
You all make me laugh, making assumptions about Ryanair and their crew.
Just because a Captain has 3800 hours, does not make him less able to make a sound decision compared to someone of 10,000 hours. Every scenario is different.
At the end of the day we are all the same - we are professional airline pilots, we've all done the same training (give or take a few changes over the years) - so the fact we have Ryanair printed on the side of our a/c and you dont, doesnt make us somehow worse than you or make you infaliable to making a wrong decision. If we started flying for BA or someother "respected" airline, does that mean we automatically become better pilots, no of course not. So why some of you b!tch and moan about how bad we are, when you dont even know 1/8 of the workforce let alone all of us, is quite frankly showing your naievity.
The sooner some of you get off your high horse and realise you are nothing special, the better.
If this was any other carrier you'd all be saying what a great job the pilots did as noone was hurt - as previous "incidents" have shown.
You all make me laugh, making assumptions about Ryanair and their crew.
Just because a Captain has 3800 hours, does not make him less able to make a sound decision compared to someone of 10,000 hours. Every scenario is different.
At the end of the day we are all the same - we are professional airline pilots, we've all done the same training (give or take a few changes over the years) - so the fact we have Ryanair printed on the side of our a/c and you dont, doesnt make us somehow worse than you or make you infaliable to making a wrong decision. If we started flying for BA or someother "respected" airline, does that mean we automatically become better pilots, no of course not. So why some of you b!tch and moan about how bad we are, when you dont even know 1/8 of the workforce let alone all of us, is quite frankly showing your naievity.
The sooner some of you get off your high horse and realise you are nothing special, the better.
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Just thought I would post a message I saw on celtic FC fan website of a person who claims to have been a passenger on the flight. I have only edited the foul language and sexist remarks. Interesting perspective if its authentic, which I cannot vouch for.
"I was on that plane today. Fame at last !!
Wasn't all that bad.
Dunno if it was the ice, the pilot making a ***k up (XXXXX XXXXX XXX ), or a combination of both.
The runway was like a ***king ice rink, or at least the bit we skidded at.
We landed at some speed and just didn't really slow down until a ***king mile up the runway.
The XXXX in the hot seat tried to turn round the corner at the top of the runway at a ridiculous speed and it was into the field from there... Either that or it was a saftey move she tried because if she had just went straight on we would have ended up on the A77!
The ryanair statment about it already being under control and taxiing in is a load of ***h. Seemed ***king all over the place from the minute we touched down.
How the ***k can a plane be allowed to land on a runway akin to an icerink at however many hundred miles an hour is the scary bit!"
"I was on that plane today. Fame at last !!
Wasn't all that bad.
Dunno if it was the ice, the pilot making a ***k up (XXXXX XXXXX XXX ), or a combination of both.
The runway was like a ***king ice rink, or at least the bit we skidded at.
We landed at some speed and just didn't really slow down until a ***king mile up the runway.
The XXXX in the hot seat tried to turn round the corner at the top of the runway at a ridiculous speed and it was into the field from there... Either that or it was a saftey move she tried because if she had just went straight on we would have ended up on the A77!
The ryanair statment about it already being under control and taxiing in is a load of ***h. Seemed ***king all over the place from the minute we touched down.
How the ***k can a plane be allowed to land on a runway akin to an icerink at however many hundred miles an hour is the scary bit!"
As a matter of idle curiousity, the MS Simulator drivers, general hysterics and FR haters might care to read a reply that I recently made on:
Questions
UK Airfields in Snow
Posting #8
It really doesn't matter how long a runway is once you are on the ground, with the brakes full on and full reverse selected if the braking action is nil and ATC have failed to promulgate this vital piece of information.
I was lucky.
Although the cockpit was over the grass, the nosewheel was still on the black bit.
It was an experience that I would not like to repeat.
Questions
UK Airfields in Snow
Posting #8
It really doesn't matter how long a runway is once you are on the ground, with the brakes full on and full reverse selected if the braking action is nil and ATC have failed to promulgate this vital piece of information.
I was lucky.
Although the cockpit was over the grass, the nosewheel was still on the black bit.
It was an experience that I would not like to repeat.
PPRuNe Tea Lady
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A77
Hmmm - if they were heading for the A77 they had a bigger problem than anyone realised as the road at the end of RWY31 is the A79! The A77 is at the RWY31 undershoot.
If the reporter's geography is as accurate as his assessment of the braking action how credible is he?
On a more serious note it could have been a lot worse. No-one was injured and I'm sure all agencies concerned will learn something from the incident.
If the reporter's geography is as accurate as his assessment of the braking action how credible is he?
On a more serious note it could have been a lot worse. No-one was injured and I'm sure all agencies concerned will learn something from the incident.
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If the reporter's geography is as accurate as his assessment of the braking action how credible is he?
My personal opinion of the incident is that there is someone to blame. That person will be found out when an investigation is concluded on the incident. Until that point, we shouldnt make wild speculation.
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The investigation will provide the factors that allowed this to happen.
I have landed at PIK for the last two days and have to say its a disgrace that it was allowed to operate.
On the first day it could maybe have been forgiven for snow and ice clearing in progress but to return today and find runways and taxi ways still covered in compacted snow/ice is a joke. They seemed quite happy to keep operating with these conditions. It was hard to even stand on the apron without falling over. In the same days i've flown into london, which experienced the same levels of snowfall and all runways and taxiways were clear, deiced and maintained.
I feel the airport has alot to answer for regarding this incident, but the crew will more than likely take the hit. If you had a collision in your car and the police were involved, no matter what the speed limit for the road is, it's driving at a speed to suit the conditions that is the factor.
A lesson for everyone at this busy time of year to slow down whether it be aircraft or car. Have a safe happy Christmas.
I have landed at PIK for the last two days and have to say its a disgrace that it was allowed to operate.
On the first day it could maybe have been forgiven for snow and ice clearing in progress but to return today and find runways and taxi ways still covered in compacted snow/ice is a joke. They seemed quite happy to keep operating with these conditions. It was hard to even stand on the apron without falling over. In the same days i've flown into london, which experienced the same levels of snowfall and all runways and taxiways were clear, deiced and maintained.
I feel the airport has alot to answer for regarding this incident, but the crew will more than likely take the hit. If you had a collision in your car and the police were involved, no matter what the speed limit for the road is, it's driving at a speed to suit the conditions that is the factor.
A lesson for everyone at this busy time of year to slow down whether it be aircraft or car. Have a safe happy Christmas.
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Nah .. Christmas-tides are not he order of the day here. Why and how is the order: if WE deal with these conditions, and somehow fail to fall off the runway/taxiway perhaps it is because we can exercise professional judgment, why should we sit back and ignore a culture that prefers to call people contractors ... nothing to do with the company of course.
Ryanair Taxi Speeds
Cloud Bunny
You need to lighten up a little. At no time did I suggest FR drivers were less than professional. They taxi faster, more often than other drivers. FACT. We know there are bonuses to be made. Don't insult the rest of us. And if I really thought they were dangerous/unprofessional, or anything else you are alluding to, I wouldn't have stood anywhere near the head of stand. I thought a little light humour wasn't too big an issue, though I recognise other circumstances make things very very challenging during landing.
Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't the intention.
OTEA
You need to lighten up a little. At no time did I suggest FR drivers were less than professional. They taxi faster, more often than other drivers. FACT. We know there are bonuses to be made. Don't insult the rest of us. And if I really thought they were dangerous/unprofessional, or anything else you are alluding to, I wouldn't have stood anywhere near the head of stand. I thought a little light humour wasn't too big an issue, though I recognise other circumstances make things very very challenging during landing.
Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't the intention.
OTEA