United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
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MU3001A, seems you chose to play kids stuff. You will not drag me into it.
I don't question the fact that the skipper has the final say when and where to divert, or that the crew should comply without reservation as they did, absent clear evidence that a particular command by the skipper may compromise the safety of the flight. His call, sure. I only question his reasoning for commanding the diversion. Would the skipper have been by his rights to divert the flight to MIA to pick up groceries for dinner?
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I only question his reasoning for commanding the diversion.
He still had the right to do it. He'll have to answer for it to the higher up(s).
The rest of how you can show us how to "copy/paste" and dinner comment..is kid stuff.
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Kid stuff.
So IMHO, was the decision to divert just to offload the purser. Assuming the rationale for that decision put forward to date and implicitly defended by some, is reasonably close to the truth.
But yes he still had the right and the authority to behave like an arrogant fool and he did.
Peace.
So IMHO, was the decision to divert just to offload the purser. Assuming the rationale for that decision put forward to date and implicitly defended by some, is reasonably close to the truth.
But yes he still had the right and the authority to behave like an arrogant fool and he did.
Peace.
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You see MU3001A, the problem with your argument is that you are, as you put it: assuming. You have no clue/idea what prompted diversion.
Based on assumption, gossip, etc.. you believe the diversion was because the PIC might have an ego problem.
Takes a lot more to divert an airliner than just to offload a feisty hostie.
Based on assumption, gossip, etc.. you believe the diversion was because the PIC might have an ego problem.
Takes a lot more to divert an airliner than just to offload a feisty hostie.
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Takes a lot more to divert an airliner than just to offload a feisty hostie.
I freely admit that my opinion is based on certain assumptions about what transpired on United Flight 842. But after all, we are both commenting on PPRUNE not collaborating on a factual report. I have no problem with those expressing the opinion that we should wait until both sides of the story have been heard before passing judgment. Only with those who have claimed the captain's absolute right to do what he did ascribed to his inherent command authority, regardless of the circumstances or reasoning.
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I am not going to stoop down to your level and engage in an online pissing contest.
It would get me nowhere. However, I will add this. Under your profile it states
Airline Captain.
It would get me nowhere. However, I will add this. Under your profile it states
Airline Captain.
Who know,,maybe he just are a abused kid with crashed aviation dreams in front of the computer 24 hours.
I still believe the Crew i fly with are not pprune ego muppets
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"Fly their carcasses...."
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please! May I briefly comment on a tangential issue which has emerged (more than once) from these discussions about the UA diversion?
As SLF I read and learn but I post here rarely, on the average once a year - calculated over a period of one year - for fear of being committed to the village stocks for reasons of premeditated and wilful insubordination.
In a previous post I pointed out that, as SLF long-in-the tooth of many leagues here and there, when an aircraft makes wobbly sounds - problematic or no - I can assure you that I suddenly lose my marginal interest in God and rapidly conclude that the only people in the whole world that matter to me are the guys (and gals) up there behind the sacred door. No-one else matters. Period.
Following such an admission, gentlemen of the air, I would respectfully ask not to be referred to as a "carcass" to be transported from point A to point B. (There have been other derogatory references to SLF.) I was under the impression that we contributed directly to your income. Yep, air-freight does the other bit I s'pose, but don't confuse the two.
Not all SLF are low IQ imbeciles; some of us are respected professionals in our own areas of endeavour. And believe me, I can tell you, you need our skills. Let's be friends.
Just a point, - thank you for your time.
As SLF I read and learn but I post here rarely, on the average once a year - calculated over a period of one year - for fear of being committed to the village stocks for reasons of premeditated and wilful insubordination.
In a previous post I pointed out that, as SLF long-in-the tooth of many leagues here and there, when an aircraft makes wobbly sounds - problematic or no - I can assure you that I suddenly lose my marginal interest in God and rapidly conclude that the only people in the whole world that matter to me are the guys (and gals) up there behind the sacred door. No-one else matters. Period.
Following such an admission, gentlemen of the air, I would respectfully ask not to be referred to as a "carcass" to be transported from point A to point B. (There have been other derogatory references to SLF.) I was under the impression that we contributed directly to your income. Yep, air-freight does the other bit I s'pose, but don't confuse the two.
Not all SLF are low IQ imbeciles; some of us are respected professionals in our own areas of endeavour. And believe me, I can tell you, you need our skills. Let's be friends.
Just a point, - thank you for your time.
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They pay the airline for me to transport them, not to foist their opinions down the crew or the staffs' throats. Sit there, STFU and let us get on with the job, because 400 voices trying to make their feelings known at 600mph is untenable.
Dani was talking about that , the merits/experience of leading other people in a proper way for the situation.
You may be the best aviator in the world but leaving those sticks,, i really wounder how many have the leader skills needed as a commander
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Those of you who champion the youth & beauty of asian carriers forget we are the ones who were in the trenches when the world changed.
my humble thanks for your input!! and i think it is not just the youth and beauty that we champion with Asian airliners,,, it is "you" and your mentality we appreciate.Keep up the good work
L2FP
Its the door.
L2FP has said most eloquently why times have changed and why these situations arise. She has also given some detail about this individual CDR.
Rather than bang on about who is boss we should be considering how to recover the joy of crew operations.
Let's start with how to get rid of the door!
L2FP has my vote for boss of United.
There, that should do it!
L2FP has said most eloquently why times have changed and why these situations arise. She has also given some detail about this individual CDR.
Rather than bang on about who is boss we should be considering how to recover the joy of crew operations.
Let's start with how to get rid of the door!
L2FP has my vote for boss of United.
There, that should do it!
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Rainboe:
sorry to disappoint you, but at 600mph, there is no time to discuss or question what the Captain wants
sorry to disappoint you, but at 600mph, there is no time to discuss or question what the Captain wants
There are things in Aviation that need to be decided in split seconds. That's what I wanted to emphazise with the story of the trainings movie (V1 cuts, see my previous post). There is no time to discuss if we should abort a take-off or not. But most CRM problems are long lasting stories. Most of the time, it starts already before the flight.
About flying together with 411A: Good luck. You two would fit perfectly together. One ego against another. Recipe for a CRM desaster!
Dani
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Here's a small list of activities where the boss is the boss and any lawful order must be carried out quickly and without question:
1. Military
2. Ship at sea
3. Aircraft in service
4. Film or video production shoot
Now there's nothing wrong with questioning an order, either to the boss or up the chain of command after you carry it out, but in all cases, questions at the time of the order will put you in a world of hurt.
1. Military
2. Ship at sea
3. Aircraft in service
4. Film or video production shoot
Now there's nothing wrong with questioning an order, either to the boss or up the chain of command after you carry it out, but in all cases, questions at the time of the order will put you in a world of hurt.
Yes, the crew's compliance to the captain's order is unsatisfactory in the captain's opinion. Yes, the captain has the right to make that judgment and has the right to take actions. But is diverting the flight 6 hours after the said incident appropriate?
People should pay attention to Luvs2FlyPurser's message. Here's another eyewitness's account to the incident. She backs up based_on_facts' account, and provides even more backgrounds in a very calm and reasoned tone.
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Those who ignore history's lessons ,are doomed to repeat the mistakes.
To all the arrogant. pompous and egotistical Commanders - I refer you to one martinet Captain Bligh.
Whilst his Command was ,no doubt, lawful, his CRM was sadly lacking and he paid the price.
Taking the reported facts on face-value, the Commanders reactions were totally disproportionate to the problem....His reaction to an alleged insubordination, showed a lack of clear decision-making....therefore he was not fit to command and was himself, a danger to the safe conduct of the flight.
There are Protocols for those situations where a FO may relieve a Commander ........the fact that the crew on the day chose to keep shtum,but the Captain was subsequently relieved of further duties (allegedly) says much.
"smoke, fire?
Before the flak...this is a rumour network, -right?
To all the arrogant. pompous and egotistical Commanders - I refer you to one martinet Captain Bligh.
Whilst his Command was ,no doubt, lawful, his CRM was sadly lacking and he paid the price.
Taking the reported facts on face-value, the Commanders reactions were totally disproportionate to the problem....His reaction to an alleged insubordination, showed a lack of clear decision-making....therefore he was not fit to command and was himself, a danger to the safe conduct of the flight.
There are Protocols for those situations where a FO may relieve a Commander ........the fact that the crew on the day chose to keep shtum,but the Captain was subsequently relieved of further duties (allegedly) says much.
"smoke, fire?
Before the flak...this is a rumour network, -right?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Hmm Roger - I see your 9/11 post has 'gorn' - just as well - you'd have been 'popular'..................
I'm amazed this is still rumbling on. It is over. Decisions will have been taken on the 'careers' of the participants by now. I do find it amazing though, and lack of information is the problem here, that one of Rainboe's death-defying razor sharp command decisions (as required in his 600mph aluminium death tube) appears to have taken just under 6 hours.
For those 'outsiders' who just do not understand the problems we sky gods face, let me enlighten you on how command appointments 'happen' in commercial aviation
1) You acquire the necessary licence
2) AVERAGE time to command over the whole industry throughout recent history has been around 9 years, ranging from 'instant' command in a particular airline to 20 years plus for those with the necessary qualifications. You sit for x years in the right hand seat learning from the anarchic sky gods in the left seat, for whom cabin crew are a bit of a necessary nuisance, WOMEN c/crew - ugh! and don't get me started on gay stewards.
3) Evenually the A S G either dies or retires or there is expansion. You (subject to on-going assessments as 'suitable'), are put on a 'command course'. Virtually no part of this course involves learning management skills outside the cockpit. Cabin crew 'inter-reaction' is not covered. Providing you take the sensible decisions on the operating problems you are presented with (making the correct announcements to the crew) you pass the course
4) Now you are an A S G and the cycle begins all over again
Several of you from industry and military backgrounds do not comprehend the complete lack of leadership training involved. Unless you have previous experience in 'leading' your folk in difficult or dangerous situations, that is it. Outside civil aviation a lot of time is spent on various facets of team leadership, as you are all aware.
Some of you would be amazed at some of the A S G decisions our resident A S G's have taken, including refusal to divert for a very sick stewardess, but to continue 4 hours plus to base, resulting in severe loss of prospects of maternity for the lady. Had to be done. Just a silly womens' problem, don't you know. I know best, I'm the Captain, after all. Very sad.
We are not ALL the same.
I'm amazed this is still rumbling on. It is over. Decisions will have been taken on the 'careers' of the participants by now. I do find it amazing though, and lack of information is the problem here, that one of Rainboe's death-defying razor sharp command decisions (as required in his 600mph aluminium death tube) appears to have taken just under 6 hours.
For those 'outsiders' who just do not understand the problems we sky gods face, let me enlighten you on how command appointments 'happen' in commercial aviation
1) You acquire the necessary licence
2) AVERAGE time to command over the whole industry throughout recent history has been around 9 years, ranging from 'instant' command in a particular airline to 20 years plus for those with the necessary qualifications. You sit for x years in the right hand seat learning from the anarchic sky gods in the left seat, for whom cabin crew are a bit of a necessary nuisance, WOMEN c/crew - ugh! and don't get me started on gay stewards.
3) Evenually the A S G either dies or retires or there is expansion. You (subject to on-going assessments as 'suitable'), are put on a 'command course'. Virtually no part of this course involves learning management skills outside the cockpit. Cabin crew 'inter-reaction' is not covered. Providing you take the sensible decisions on the operating problems you are presented with (making the correct announcements to the crew) you pass the course
4) Now you are an A S G and the cycle begins all over again
Several of you from industry and military backgrounds do not comprehend the complete lack of leadership training involved. Unless you have previous experience in 'leading' your folk in difficult or dangerous situations, that is it. Outside civil aviation a lot of time is spent on various facets of team leadership, as you are all aware.
Some of you would be amazed at some of the A S G decisions our resident A S G's have taken, including refusal to divert for a very sick stewardess, but to continue 4 hours plus to base, resulting in severe loss of prospects of maternity for the lady. Had to be done. Just a silly womens' problem, don't you know. I know best, I'm the Captain, after all. Very sad.
We are not ALL the same.
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The said flight was 13 hours long. There was plenty of time to think.
Could he exercise his authority in the way he did? Sure, and nobody doubts it. But the only infallibility I can think of is papal infallibility - and even that is challenged.
The funny thing is that in the end, this will probably end up in a court of law with the captain and the airline fighting over the termination of his contract. The one who will be calling the shots then is a judge - someone who may have never seen a cockpit from the inside or even flown. So just sit back, close your eyes for a moment and try to imagine how a judge as a layman in aviation matters - or as some here would put it, "SLF" or "a carcass" - will rule after listening to the defendant arguing in a way we have seen it on this threat over and over again and after having heard all members of the cabin crew, the first officers and some first class passengers as witnesses. You want to place your bets?
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The carcass situation
Just a brief diversion. I had to laugh.
Came off the phone this morning to an old friend of mine who is a South African cargo pilot. He doesn't post here but occasionally scans PPRuNe and apparently he saw Rainboe's comment today and will tell the crew when he flies tomorrow. He reckons they will be tickled pink (literally) as they are currently hauling carcasses.
Give Rainboe his due, when he is not flying his 600 mph death tube and outraging people, he obviously knows his stuff and there is always something to learn by reading between the lines (and carcasses).
Came off the phone this morning to an old friend of mine who is a South African cargo pilot. He doesn't post here but occasionally scans PPRuNe and apparently he saw Rainboe's comment today and will tell the crew when he flies tomorrow. He reckons they will be tickled pink (literally) as they are currently hauling carcasses.
Give Rainboe his due, when he is not flying his 600 mph death tube and outraging people, he obviously knows his stuff and there is always something to learn by reading between the lines (and carcasses).
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Off-topic, but...
One begs to disagree. She is certainly no stranger to vociferating on an issue without having the faintest, which in my book is a zero on credibility across the board.
OTOH there are plenty of posters here with real knowledge and real ability to communicate it. Those are the goldmines.
Originally Posted by Juud
If you allow yourself to look beyond Rainboe´s tone, the man is a goldmine.
OTOH there are plenty of posters here with real knowledge and real ability to communicate it. Those are the goldmines.