United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
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American Captains put up with so much **** from the flight attendants it's unbelievable. I have flown with many Euro captains in previous jobs and they definetly would not tolerate half of what I see at Delta on a daily basis.
In order for this captain to have diverted, it must of been bad.
In order for this captain to have diverted, it must of been bad.
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Well, it is obviously difficult without knowing personal details to which we should not be privvy. It is more than possible the return to duty was justified, and that some underlying serpent leapt up and bit. We have seen the sad events many times in the UK where parole boards have assessed X as fit for release and X then goes on to commit heinous crimes. I have also seen (in military days) a premature return to flying duties due to manpower pressure with unfortunate results. I really do not think we should pry too deeply into this man's behaviour. The flight did not crash. Everyone got where they were going, albeit late, and it is said the Captain will not be flying again.
I do think however there are worthy questions as to the conduct of the crew, including the co-pilot/s and the way the airline handled the subsequent departure. The purser may well have needed some 'guidance' also, who knows?
I do think however there are worthy questions as to the conduct of the crew, including the co-pilot/s and the way the airline handled the subsequent departure. The purser may well have needed some 'guidance' also, who knows?
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There will be people who have a very in depth understanding of the actual events and circumstances in this case. As with many of the other readers and posters here, I am not one of them. However some of the issues raised lead to very polarized points of view. Perhaps it is time to take a more sideways or lateral viewpoint?
This type of event is very rare. Pilots, Captains and First Officers as well as Cabin crew and the passsengers in their charge are human and therefore subject to the occassional failures, illness and breakdowns that sporadically occur within any cross section of a society. There are procedures and checks and balances that seek to minimize the risk that even these rare occurences might bring, however in an imperfect world they can never be totally eliminated. In extremely rare cases "accidents" and serious incidents have resulted from physical, emotional and behavioural breakdowns that range from suicide, through depression to mental breakdown and exhaustion or simply the spectrum of fatigue.
One of the primary checks and balances in place, is the use of multiple system redundancy protection. In the human element this involves the use of more than 1 crewmember who can assume the mechanics of a particular role. When a failure occurs, it is often the case that the individual is carefully monitored rather than isolated as the best cause of action. Resource management is about the careful management of what is available, rather than establishing a hierarchy or pecking order for no particular imperative.
In a situation where the emotional behaviour or any other serious aspect of the health of a person, is having or is likely to have a serious impact on the safe operation of that flight, it is entirely proper that the best place for that aircraft is safely on the ground. Arguments about who did what to who, and the commercial implications of the chosen location, or the cost and inconvenience can then all be addressed at leisure. Although the behaviourial elements are a part of everybodies conscious existence, it is very rare that they overspill into an event such as this one. The matter will no doubt be investigated and where necessary the lessons learned and the treatments or rectifications will be applied.
However inconvenient, unusual or disruptive, the decision to prevent a bad situation (from whatever cause) escalating, or having the serious potential to escalate into a much worse one cannot in itself be faulted even if the person responsible for that decision is themselves the cause, or contributory to the causal event.
This type of event is very rare. Pilots, Captains and First Officers as well as Cabin crew and the passsengers in their charge are human and therefore subject to the occassional failures, illness and breakdowns that sporadically occur within any cross section of a society. There are procedures and checks and balances that seek to minimize the risk that even these rare occurences might bring, however in an imperfect world they can never be totally eliminated. In extremely rare cases "accidents" and serious incidents have resulted from physical, emotional and behavioural breakdowns that range from suicide, through depression to mental breakdown and exhaustion or simply the spectrum of fatigue.
One of the primary checks and balances in place, is the use of multiple system redundancy protection. In the human element this involves the use of more than 1 crewmember who can assume the mechanics of a particular role. When a failure occurs, it is often the case that the individual is carefully monitored rather than isolated as the best cause of action. Resource management is about the careful management of what is available, rather than establishing a hierarchy or pecking order for no particular imperative.
In a situation where the emotional behaviour or any other serious aspect of the health of a person, is having or is likely to have a serious impact on the safe operation of that flight, it is entirely proper that the best place for that aircraft is safely on the ground. Arguments about who did what to who, and the commercial implications of the chosen location, or the cost and inconvenience can then all be addressed at leisure. Although the behaviourial elements are a part of everybodies conscious existence, it is very rare that they overspill into an event such as this one. The matter will no doubt be investigated and where necessary the lessons learned and the treatments or rectifications will be applied.
However inconvenient, unusual or disruptive, the decision to prevent a bad situation (from whatever cause) escalating, or having the serious potential to escalate into a much worse one cannot in itself be faulted even if the person responsible for that decision is themselves the cause, or contributory to the causal event.
Question for FOs and Dispatch
Given the reports that the Captain's license has been suspended by the FAA, I am left wondering why Dispatch released the flight to continue with this Captain. Was there an attempt at a private contact between the FOs and Dispatch?
Yes, I know the pax would be majorly inconvenienced waiting for a new crew front and back. But releasing a flight when there are questions about the Captain's fitness is not on either.
Yes, I know the pax would be majorly inconvenienced waiting for a new crew front and back. But releasing a flight when there are questions about the Captain's fitness is not on either.
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RBF - MIA turn-round time 40-60 minutes? FAA reaction time (to the nearest day)? They have to find out about it first, which means a report from the company. Who questioned his 'fitness'?
BOAC - I suspect the Captain's decison to divert to MIA raised questions in the FOs' minds about his fitness.
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American Captains put up with so much **** from the flight attendants it's unbelievable. I have flown with many Euro captains in previous jobs and they definetly would not tolerate half of what I see at Delta on a daily basis.
You have these hierarchy problems only in those airlines, where there is a big difference in status in one crew. You have these problems very seldom in smaller crews, where - as one could assume - the gap is smaller and the CA power to stand up would be greater. You don't have these problems in LCC, where captains also do lots of ground handling duties, help with the cleaning of the cabin (yeaaah, that exists) aso.
It also seems that it happens more in majors, where captains have more power, are older and show more authority. And it happens more in the USA, where there seem to be most of the defender of the United captain.
That all shows me that you fall in a trap of perception. It's not the problem of the CA's, its yours! Never in my live did I ever have a problem with a cabin attendant. And never had a CA had a problem with me. And never has a senior CA questioned my authority, even when I helped her to clean the cabin just moments before.
Dani
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The annointed have spoken to the unworthy
@411A
"Actually .... you are clearly not an airline captain and your comments are without merit . Why am I not surprised ?"
Wow, we're getting a MasterClass in condescension here .
Tell me, when you're in uniform, do you not find that the arrogance you exude stains your shirt ?
Anyway 411, you obviously think you deserve it, so take a promotion.
From now on you shall be known as 7 -11 ( and go easy on the ketchup on those fries).
"Actually .... you are clearly not an airline captain and your comments are without merit . Why am I not surprised ?"
Wow, we're getting a MasterClass in condescension here .
Tell me, when you're in uniform, do you not find that the arrogance you exude stains your shirt ?
Anyway 411, you obviously think you deserve it, so take a promotion.
From now on you shall be known as 7 -11 ( and go easy on the ketchup on those fries).
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Rainboe
if if if.... get real...wake up..when will you ever admit that even a Captain could get coconuts?
If he is 'suspended', that means whilst an investigation is rightfully ongoing into his decision. Therefore, it is not completed. If he has been dismissed
Warning Toxic!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Can we leave out stupid posts like that in this forum from people who apparently have nothing to do with the industry but fly as a passenger now an then? And don't presume to come here abusing some of the most senior members please!
I will make no judgements at this stage about anybody's behaviour. it sounds bizarre, but there are definitely 2 sides to this story, and more that needs exploring. I was for years a copilot and captain on 747s across the Atlantic. We usually flew 2 crew, sometimes 3 pilots. When you are the copilot, a lot of responsibility devolves on you to help the Captain make his decisions. Advise, suggest, and await the outcome. if you don't agree, sometimes you have to be assertive, but whatever the final outcome, you back him up. With 2 copilots, that responsibility is easier and you get listened to more. It would be interesting to hear why they did not step in more forcefully if they were willing subsequently to continue to final destination. Whatever, the captain has my sympathies- he felt he was driven into a corner, rightfully or wrongfully, necessitating an extraordinary diversion. There were a lot of issues going on here that need exploring. the fact we are seeing such adamant accusations from someone who claims to be involved raises my suspicions. They would have been told not to discuss it!
Once again, the Pprune Courts Martial has been convened and already delivered its brutal verdict, based on the flimsiest of facts and zero evidence! Face it- you are not going to hear what the findings of the investigation are! It was not even an 'incident'. It was just a diversion.
Snaproll/Suninmyeyes- 2 well written, sensible posts from people who understand the issue and what the problems may have been. Incredible the stupidity from people delivering snap judgements and making such rude remarks. It is a fact the professional pilots do need to discuss these issues without being overwhelmed by idiotic opinions delivered on a zero knowledge base be every idiot with a keyboard. What gets me is the personal abuse heaped at experienced pilots because they don't agree with an occasional passengers opinion!
I will make no judgements at this stage about anybody's behaviour. it sounds bizarre, but there are definitely 2 sides to this story, and more that needs exploring. I was for years a copilot and captain on 747s across the Atlantic. We usually flew 2 crew, sometimes 3 pilots. When you are the copilot, a lot of responsibility devolves on you to help the Captain make his decisions. Advise, suggest, and await the outcome. if you don't agree, sometimes you have to be assertive, but whatever the final outcome, you back him up. With 2 copilots, that responsibility is easier and you get listened to more. It would be interesting to hear why they did not step in more forcefully if they were willing subsequently to continue to final destination. Whatever, the captain has my sympathies- he felt he was driven into a corner, rightfully or wrongfully, necessitating an extraordinary diversion. There were a lot of issues going on here that need exploring. the fact we are seeing such adamant accusations from someone who claims to be involved raises my suspicions. They would have been told not to discuss it!
Once again, the Pprune Courts Martial has been convened and already delivered its brutal verdict, based on the flimsiest of facts and zero evidence! Face it- you are not going to hear what the findings of the investigation are! It was not even an 'incident'. It was just a diversion.
Snaproll/Suninmyeyes- 2 well written, sensible posts from people who understand the issue and what the problems may have been. Incredible the stupidity from people delivering snap judgements and making such rude remarks. It is a fact the professional pilots do need to discuss these issues without being overwhelmed by idiotic opinions delivered on a zero knowledge base be every idiot with a keyboard. What gets me is the personal abuse heaped at experienced pilots because they don't agree with an occasional passengers opinion!
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I had a FA one time on a B727 I picked up for a 30 minute flight in the carribean that got in a fight with the agent, a passenger, crew scheduling then with me because she was in a pissed off mood. She wanted me to throw the through passenger off because of a baggage in closet dispute she was having. I took the passengers side, which I normally wouldn't do, but watching her behavior knew she was losing it. I told her to sit in her jumpseat and not get up and let the other flight attendants handle the cabin for our inter island 30 minute flight. Thank God she got off there.
I probably should have had her removed in San Juan but didn't. Those judging the United captain need to get some facts before they judge.
As we all know, the captain has the final authority and can do what ever he feels necessary. He also has to justify what he did after the fact so must be prepared to do that. I was justified in removing her but didn't because the simplist sollution was have her remain seated in her jumpseat until she could readjust her attitude. Talked to one of the FA's at her base a few months later and told her the story. She said she always fights with everybody on her flights.
I probably should have had her removed in San Juan but didn't. Those judging the United captain need to get some facts before they judge.
As we all know, the captain has the final authority and can do what ever he feels necessary. He also has to justify what he did after the fact so must be prepared to do that. I was justified in removing her but didn't because the simplist sollution was have her remain seated in her jumpseat until she could readjust her attitude. Talked to one of the FA's at her base a few months later and told her the story. She said she always fights with everybody on her flights.
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Captain's Prior Medical
SaturnV posted:
Based on facts posted this at #140:
Rainboe may not think as former military SE pilot, I am sufficiently rated to express an opinion on this board; but, having had four knee surgeries, I don't think his surgery should have had a bearing on the captain's actions.
Given privacy laws, the condition that led to his being on an extended medical absence prior to this trip will and ought not be revealed. That's between the captain and United's medical staff. One may surmise however, that the prior condition may have a bearing on his actions on this flight
Based on facts posted this at #140:
This was his first trip back from a 4 month leave for knee surgery. He had a pronounced limp.
Rainboe may not think as former military SE pilot, I am sufficiently rated to express an opinion on this board; but, having had four knee surgeries, I don't think his surgery should have had a bearing on the captain's actions.
Interesting that a few posts mentioned Capt. Quigg. If I recall correctly, the twist at the end was the contempt shown by the counsel for the officers who failed to support their captain when he was having problems.
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rainboe
I can only hope you are retired and not a threat to crew or psgrs. anymore. You say no one should be on this site but professionals but you must remember that the population in general puts their lives in our hands each and every time they board an aircraft, therefore; they have EVERY right to read and commemt.
As for your opinion (however twisted) about the captain being the almighty and everyone should bow and grovel to them (actually you always say, "him"...there ARE female captains...I'm sure that drives you to distraction) and that he's the "be all, end all."
Well, our country suffered a tragic "sucker punch" that we refere to as "9/11." Ever since that day, our cockpit and F/A's act as "one" and we count on each other and back each other up. In the cabin we (the Flight Attendants) are the eyes and ears for the cockpit. They trust us and respect us...we earn it. We give the same to them as they've earned it. It's when one of us, on either side of "the door" does something grossly inappropriate, does that respect disappear.
The captain on this UAL flight was grossly inappropriate in his actions and it cost him his career. He requested from our flight ops. to land in MIA and he was denied...he landed anyway.Both of the F/O's on the flight tried in vain to talk him out of this action and gave him multiple reasons and alternative solutions...he deisregarded all of them.
We as crew members ARE allowed to discuss this as this was a "diversion" not an airline incident. I was there when the plane door opened and the captain didn't have the balls to open the cockpit door until after our Purser walked off. The Customs Agents that met the trip talked to the captain and at one point in a loud stern voice asked, "you didn't think you had any other choice than to land this plane in the middle of the night because you didn't get your papers that you didn't even need until after you landed???" It was at that point the captain didn't have much top say. To say the Custom Agents were infuriated would be an understatement. They asked our Purser if she was ok and assured us (her crew) that they would make sure she was on the first flight to ORD...and she was. She received a VERY warm welcome from management and crew alike. While this captain was met and taken behind closed doors for hours.
What does it tell you that he lost his job and his license suspended pendinf further investigation.
Face it, he was dead wrong...there were no heightened tensions between he and the Purser, there was no fighting...he had a breal from reality and he paid for it and rightly so. Can you possibly put yourself in the Purser's position?? She held herself together when really she was trying to figure out what the hell was happening, she held us together and she held her head high. You would have been lucky to have flown with her....we were and we will be again.
As for your opinion (however twisted) about the captain being the almighty and everyone should bow and grovel to them (actually you always say, "him"...there ARE female captains...I'm sure that drives you to distraction) and that he's the "be all, end all."
Well, our country suffered a tragic "sucker punch" that we refere to as "9/11." Ever since that day, our cockpit and F/A's act as "one" and we count on each other and back each other up. In the cabin we (the Flight Attendants) are the eyes and ears for the cockpit. They trust us and respect us...we earn it. We give the same to them as they've earned it. It's when one of us, on either side of "the door" does something grossly inappropriate, does that respect disappear.
The captain on this UAL flight was grossly inappropriate in his actions and it cost him his career. He requested from our flight ops. to land in MIA and he was denied...he landed anyway.Both of the F/O's on the flight tried in vain to talk him out of this action and gave him multiple reasons and alternative solutions...he deisregarded all of them.
We as crew members ARE allowed to discuss this as this was a "diversion" not an airline incident. I was there when the plane door opened and the captain didn't have the balls to open the cockpit door until after our Purser walked off. The Customs Agents that met the trip talked to the captain and at one point in a loud stern voice asked, "you didn't think you had any other choice than to land this plane in the middle of the night because you didn't get your papers that you didn't even need until after you landed???" It was at that point the captain didn't have much top say. To say the Custom Agents were infuriated would be an understatement. They asked our Purser if she was ok and assured us (her crew) that they would make sure she was on the first flight to ORD...and she was. She received a VERY warm welcome from management and crew alike. While this captain was met and taken behind closed doors for hours.
What does it tell you that he lost his job and his license suspended pendinf further investigation.
Face it, he was dead wrong...there were no heightened tensions between he and the Purser, there was no fighting...he had a breal from reality and he paid for it and rightly so. Can you possibly put yourself in the Purser's position?? She held herself together when really she was trying to figure out what the hell was happening, she held us together and she held her head high. You would have been lucky to have flown with her....we were and we will be again.
Very good point ChrisVJ.
'Based on facts' is an interesting moniker to preceed a speech full of such innacuracies.
For your enlightenment the Captain does not need 'flight operations permission' to land anywhere.
Not even an 'angry customs agent' has this authority.
As was stated earlier this situation was allowed to escalate needlessly, probably because the Captain felt backed into a corner. If the flight attendant in question had backed down and swallowed his pride it could have been avoided. (See ChrisVJ's comment)
If this incident had happened outside the US there would have been a different outcome.
Unfortunately this incident will only encourage the not inconsiderable number of senior 'dinosaur' flight attendants to be even more difficult, recalcitrant and unprofessional when dealing with the flight deck (for many of you that is hard to imagine) and our vital passengers.
For those Flight Attendants I offer you this, your 'it's all about me' attitude is our overseas competitors best ally.
There is a very good reason why passengers avoid US Airlines and flock to Cathay, Singapore, British Airways etc..
And one of the main reasons why US Airlines are in financial tatters.
Worth pondering on one of your extended 'breaks' down the back while hiding from the passengers.
'Based on facts' is an interesting moniker to preceed a speech full of such innacuracies.
For your enlightenment the Captain does not need 'flight operations permission' to land anywhere.
Not even an 'angry customs agent' has this authority.
As was stated earlier this situation was allowed to escalate needlessly, probably because the Captain felt backed into a corner. If the flight attendant in question had backed down and swallowed his pride it could have been avoided. (See ChrisVJ's comment)
If this incident had happened outside the US there would have been a different outcome.
Unfortunately this incident will only encourage the not inconsiderable number of senior 'dinosaur' flight attendants to be even more difficult, recalcitrant and unprofessional when dealing with the flight deck (for many of you that is hard to imagine) and our vital passengers.
For those Flight Attendants I offer you this, your 'it's all about me' attitude is our overseas competitors best ally.
There is a very good reason why passengers avoid US Airlines and flock to Cathay, Singapore, British Airways etc..
And one of the main reasons why US Airlines are in financial tatters.
Worth pondering on one of your extended 'breaks' down the back while hiding from the passengers.
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...about the captain being the almighty and everyone should bow and grovel ...
For your enlightenment the Captain does not need 'flight operations permission' to land anywhere.
For those Flight Attendants I offer you this, your 'it's all about me' attitude is our overseas competitors best ally.
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Airlines in Financial Taters
There is a very good reason why passengers avoid US Airlines and flock to Cathay, Singapore, British Airways etc..
And one of the main reasons why US Airlines are in financial tatters.
And one of the main reasons why US Airlines are in financial tatters.
That said some airlines do have the liberty of retiring F/A at 26 years of age and some do not, so if this is counted as service, well I have seen some real class acts on the airlines mentioned above and would not hold that as the sole reason for a demise of an airline. Personally I find nothing wrong with US airlines F/A. Infact some of them have a great sense of humor to lighten up situations.
That said passengers nowadays share equal blame for some of the resultant attitude they give F/A and ground staff. After all we are now liviing in an era of instant gratification and no less is acceptable to all, including captains, FA, passengers, and internet junkies too!
I think the issue lies more in the times we live in where we all are under pressure and a cloud over our heads.
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Stupid Posts from Passengers
Can we leave out stupid posts like that in this forum from people who apparently have nothing to do with the industry but fly as a passenger now an then? And don't presume to come here abusing some of the most senior members please!
Hmmmm. Isnt this the same passenger that pays the fare to airlines that pays captains like yourself?
Rainboe the internet is a great leveler of society and free speach. Learn to understand that.
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Have to admit that I have enjoyed this thread if only for the humour. That being said, CRM went out the window and everyone paid the price, the captain, the crew and the ones that pay the wages.