NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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"I quite frankly "lost it" and expressed in no uncertain terms that especially while the aircraft was in a "dynamic" state and with no other pilot in position, that it was absolutely crazy to not be totally monitoring the aircraft. His look said it all. I was an ornery old fart from a decrepit generation."
Sawbones,
It happens all too freqently and yes you are preceived as the bad guy. Had a older guy on my first leg ever with him who had just come from 747 SO to a 320 FO. Pushes seat back and pulls out a book at top of climb without so much as asking. Next leg he is PF and does it again only this time as we climb thru FL180. After our "discussion" he pouts for the rest of the trip.
Background experience seems irrelevant; military or civilian, it doesn't seem to matter.
Sawbones,
It happens all too freqently and yes you are preceived as the bad guy. Had a older guy on my first leg ever with him who had just come from 747 SO to a 320 FO. Pushes seat back and pulls out a book at top of climb without so much as asking. Next leg he is PF and does it again only this time as we climb thru FL180. After our "discussion" he pouts for the rest of the trip.
Background experience seems irrelevant; military or civilian, it doesn't seem to matter.
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worldpilot -
That 'device' is known as the ALERTER on engines in the US. If the Engineer does not activate an air-operated device at least once every minute the Alerter will sound progressivly louder for a few seconds and if the Engineer does not react, a Penalty Brake application will occur and bring the train to a stop.
I suppose something similar could be installed aboard these newer aircraft where apparently it is easy for the mind to wander.
I noticed that the driver was constantly activating (approx. every 30 seconds) an integrated button in front of the panel.
I suppose something similar could be installed aboard these newer aircraft where apparently it is easy for the mind to wander.
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VIS3
I do have some ideas on how to improve things. But I want to clarify some things that you have misunderstood.
I became a pilot for love of being good at one thing, a noble thing...something that would provide a good living for me and my family. IF there was not a good job as part of the equation, I would have takent that job APPLE COMPUTER offered me . And I mean it. I would have made more money as a janitor for apple computer than I have as a pilot at a major us carrier.
flying may be a joy when YOU choose when to fly, where to fly and what to fly.
And who to fly with...Sawbones...if I were you I would have reported that copilot for insubordination, and not just to the company.
IF you want a professional, someone who knows what he is doing and is disciplined enough to do things right all the time, then YOU have to pay for it. So, make it clear what professional conduct is, pay very well, great perks and say:
IF YOU SCREW UP, YOU LOSE THE BEST JOB IN THE WORLD.
And at one time, and I tasted the end of it, it was the best job in the world. Even the great Sully ( who I have flown with way back when) is echoing the concept I present here.
Imagine...going to work at a real job that merges art and science. Thinking faster than anyone on earth just to keep up ( astronauts and figher pilots aside). and then finding out that you are being paid about what a manager at a good McDonald's hamburger joint is getting?
All of a sudden, coupled with automation, you suddenly realize that the worst pilot at your airline gets paid as much as the best one . and why should you try so hard? Pride? HA...that was lost about 8 years ago. We watched our bosses get bonuses while we lost our pensions and 50% of our pay. All to keep the price of a ticket affordable to you, the passenger, while fuel went up up up.
so...that is my view. right now I would fire a number of pilots that I know aren't very good...the trouble is that their replacements would be even worse.
So, we reinvigorate the industry or expect more and more goofy things.
And those guys like sawbones was talking about...those guys would be the first to go.
I would look for pilots like the greats, not a bunch of button pushing kids who think it is more fun to read a paper, or play with a laptop (other than bonafide wx info etc) than to pilot a plane.
I would give back the pay rates to the pilots right now...but a video camera would be the price for those better pay rates...and people would be fired for reading a book, or a newspaper, or screwing a stew, or playing with a laptop.
And...here is the big one. I would say to the pilot group...you get your old, good pay back, but if there is one screw up...YOU ALL PAY FOR IT...that is, one guy screws up, embarrases the profession, the entire pilot group loses a months pay...so you police yourselves!
I became a pilot for love of being good at one thing, a noble thing...something that would provide a good living for me and my family. IF there was not a good job as part of the equation, I would have takent that job APPLE COMPUTER offered me . And I mean it. I would have made more money as a janitor for apple computer than I have as a pilot at a major us carrier.
flying may be a joy when YOU choose when to fly, where to fly and what to fly.
And who to fly with...Sawbones...if I were you I would have reported that copilot for insubordination, and not just to the company.
IF you want a professional, someone who knows what he is doing and is disciplined enough to do things right all the time, then YOU have to pay for it. So, make it clear what professional conduct is, pay very well, great perks and say:
IF YOU SCREW UP, YOU LOSE THE BEST JOB IN THE WORLD.
And at one time, and I tasted the end of it, it was the best job in the world. Even the great Sully ( who I have flown with way back when) is echoing the concept I present here.
Imagine...going to work at a real job that merges art and science. Thinking faster than anyone on earth just to keep up ( astronauts and figher pilots aside). and then finding out that you are being paid about what a manager at a good McDonald's hamburger joint is getting?
All of a sudden, coupled with automation, you suddenly realize that the worst pilot at your airline gets paid as much as the best one . and why should you try so hard? Pride? HA...that was lost about 8 years ago. We watched our bosses get bonuses while we lost our pensions and 50% of our pay. All to keep the price of a ticket affordable to you, the passenger, while fuel went up up up.
so...that is my view. right now I would fire a number of pilots that I know aren't very good...the trouble is that their replacements would be even worse.
So, we reinvigorate the industry or expect more and more goofy things.
And those guys like sawbones was talking about...those guys would be the first to go.
I would look for pilots like the greats, not a bunch of button pushing kids who think it is more fun to read a paper, or play with a laptop (other than bonafide wx info etc) than to pilot a plane.
I would give back the pay rates to the pilots right now...but a video camera would be the price for those better pay rates...and people would be fired for reading a book, or a newspaper, or screwing a stew, or playing with a laptop.
And...here is the big one. I would say to the pilot group...you get your old, good pay back, but if there is one screw up...YOU ALL PAY FOR IT...that is, one guy screws up, embarrases the profession, the entire pilot group loses a months pay...so you police yourselves!
Psychophysiological entity
Sounds like a good idea chaps . . . could you go along with that plan? Mind you, it's obviously ripped off from Miss Spanky-bottom's emporium for naughty boys.
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BOAC writes:
rr - I'll leave my clear personal views on this incident aside.
Of course you are entitled to your views - 'you' are after all our customers, and a business that stops listening to them................
What you will find amongst the posters on PPRuNe are pilots who are basically insecure in their own ability, status or whatever. Any question that asks 'why'/'what'/ 'how did that happen' etc is instinctively met with an attack on the poster who is either 'not a pilot so cannot comment' or gifted with poor skills in English/punctuation/syntax/grammar etc. and sometimes even an outburst of 'I'm the greatest' which even the most basic psychiatrist can readily identify.
If you have the stamina, I exhort you to stick with it and ignore those posters. If you go too far off the rails the mods should 'guide' the direction of the thread.
rr - I'll leave my clear personal views on this incident aside.
Of course you are entitled to your views - 'you' are after all our customers, and a business that stops listening to them................
What you will find amongst the posters on PPRuNe are pilots who are basically insecure in their own ability, status or whatever. Any question that asks 'why'/'what'/ 'how did that happen' etc is instinctively met with an attack on the poster who is either 'not a pilot so cannot comment' or gifted with poor skills in English/punctuation/syntax/grammar etc. and sometimes even an outburst of 'I'm the greatest' which even the most basic psychiatrist can readily identify.
If you have the stamina, I exhort you to stick with it and ignore those posters. If you go too far off the rails the mods should 'guide' the direction of the thread.
I've learned a lot from PPRune, and treasure the insight into incidents and accidents.
Sage responses such as yours give me hope for the future of commercial transport.
Fact is, I have to have a great amount of respect for those in left and right chairs on an airliners, or the person behind the big spinny wheel on a bus, or the guy behind the wheel of a retired cop-car painted in taxi colors.
Technology aside, any and all of you have my life in your hands when I board your conveyance - regardless of what it is.
It's not so much what you drive, it's how you drive it.
This whole topic explores just what can go wrong with a bad attitude.
I don't think suggestions regarding "20 minute buttons" et al are going to fix the problem - we need pilots who are engaged enough to not blow off flying the airplane.
SLF used to look upon flight crew with awe and respect, as those folks represented a small portion of the general populace.
They used to be men and women who commanded respect because of their deportment, their skill, their reliability, and their dedication to the concept of moving lots of people safely and comfortably.
Since 9/11, I think a different breed is emerging. Many newbies and some veterans are very comfortable sitting behind the locked door, doing no more than checklists and regs require.
It would be interesting to see a "then" versus "now" study of CPL who also own their own small aircraft and fly for sheer enjoyment.
I don't mean to step on any toes here, but, frankly, the prestige has evaporated - not because the paying customers wanted it to, but because they were too stupid to believe in the old saw "you get what you pay for."
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No monitoring, no performance improvement possible
No doubt, the pressure on profit margins in the airline industry is enormous. However though, I don't believe that increasing pilot earnings will solve the problem. As a comparison, directors and executives of companies earn millions a year and still lack the appropriate perspectives.
From my perspective, as long as no measures are in place to monitor situational awareness of pilots in the cockpit, these enormous uncertainties will still be part of the aviation industry.
I think the "BIG BROTHER" is watching you perspective might be a good idea though. Cameras should be installed in the cockpit for monitoring purposes. There are cameras on buses and trains, why not in the cockpit?
WP
From my perspective, as long as no measures are in place to monitor situational awareness of pilots in the cockpit, these enormous uncertainties will still be part of the aviation industry.
I think the "BIG BROTHER" is watching you perspective might be a good idea though. Cameras should be installed in the cockpit for monitoring purposes. There are cameras on buses and trains, why not in the cockpit?
WP
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wake up call
Tailstrickecharles mentions, post 501, that the system announces a serious problem requiring immediate attention and action...by blaring a horn - the same for "takeoff configuration problem" and "pressurisation problem".
A recent case of driving while distracted by texting on a cell phone in the UK resulted in prison for the driver, who didn't notice the car broken down ahead of her, with fatal result.
So alertness fades when bored, when distracted. And attention is gained by blaring a horn at the pilot. The horn does not apparently indicate which particular problem has arisen.
The use of a cell phone while driving is distracting. However, listening to music on Classic FM is not distracting.
Is it total nonsense to suggest that listening to Mozart on a long flight may actually assist concentration? Interrupted by a selection of suitable alarms, for example Beethoven's 5th for "takeoff configuration problem" and
possibly some dramatic Wagner for "pressurisation problem".........At the very least, while listening to a symphony, you can keep your eye on the ball.
just a thought from left field.
A recent case of driving while distracted by texting on a cell phone in the UK resulted in prison for the driver, who didn't notice the car broken down ahead of her, with fatal result.
So alertness fades when bored, when distracted. And attention is gained by blaring a horn at the pilot. The horn does not apparently indicate which particular problem has arisen.
The use of a cell phone while driving is distracting. However, listening to music on Classic FM is not distracting.
Is it total nonsense to suggest that listening to Mozart on a long flight may actually assist concentration? Interrupted by a selection of suitable alarms, for example Beethoven's 5th for "takeoff configuration problem" and
possibly some dramatic Wagner for "pressurisation problem".........At the very least, while listening to a symphony, you can keep your eye on the ball.
just a thought from left field.
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mary
I guess I have an odd background for a pilot...I played the drums professionaly while in the US Army band...and I was bored while riding in the bus to the gigs so I learned how to drive the bus to the gig.
and I also became an airline pilot. drummer, bus driver, pilot ( a degree in political science with lots of courses in meteorology to boot)
So I agree with you about using music to enhance performance of piloting duties. If memory serves , at least one of the apollo moon missions had a constant flow of MUZAC (sp/)...you know the music you hear in the background while in an elevator (lift to you brits)?
there would be different tunes for different phases of flight. more UP stuff while takeoff and landing...and a mixup now and again to keep you awake.
But airline pilots are a hugely diverse lot...there won't be one cure.
and I also became an airline pilot. drummer, bus driver, pilot ( a degree in political science with lots of courses in meteorology to boot)
So I agree with you about using music to enhance performance of piloting duties. If memory serves , at least one of the apollo moon missions had a constant flow of MUZAC (sp/)...you know the music you hear in the background while in an elevator (lift to you brits)?
there would be different tunes for different phases of flight. more UP stuff while takeoff and landing...and a mixup now and again to keep you awake.
But airline pilots are a hugely diverse lot...there won't be one cure.
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That 'device' is known as the ALERTER on engines in the US. If the Engineer does not activate an air-operated device at least once every minute the Alerter will sound progressivly louder for a few seconds and if the Engineer does not react, a Penalty Brake application will occur and bring the train to a stop.
I suppose something similar could be installed aboard these newer aircraft where apparently it is easy for the mind to wander.
I suppose something similar could be installed aboard these newer aircraft where apparently it is easy for the mind to wander.
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Looks like Randy Babbitt is already hanging these guys out to dry. I'm still amazed that so much is being said by the feds this soon after the MSP incident. The BUF pilots are dead and by tradition, fair game for blame. Perhaps the NWA pilots hanged themselves with last Sunday's confessions to the NTSB.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009...s-Babbitt.html
Here's an interesting video on what to tell the feds if you are involved in an accident or incident from PPRuNe's sister website APC:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/p...090804340.html
...Babbitt told an international aviation club on Wednesday that aviation is facing an ''extreme need to refocus on professionalism.'' He cited two examples: Northwest Flight 188, which overshot Minneapolis by 150 miles last month, and a regional airliner that crashed earlier this year near Buffalo, N.Y., killing 50 people.
The two Northwest pilots -- Capt. Timothy Cheney, 53, of Gig Harbor, Wash., and First Officer, Richard Cole, 54, of Salem, Ore. -- told the National Transportation Safety Board they lost track of time and place while working on crew scheduling on their laptops. Air traffic controllers and the airline's dispatchers were unable to communicate with the plane for 91 minutes, raising national security concerns.
In the Buffalo crash, testimony at an NTSB hearing in May indicated the pilots made a series of critical errors just before the plane experienced an aerodynamic stall and plunged to the ground.
A former airline pilot and pilots union president, Babbitt said that in both cases the pilots forgot their first job was to focus on flying the plane.
''I think that this is a sign of a much bigger problem,'' Babbott said. ''I can't regulate professionalism. With everything we know about human factors, there are still those who just ignore the common sense rules of safety.''
He contrasted the two incidents with US Airways Flight 1547, whose captain -- Chesley ''Sully'' Sullenberger -- made a precision landing in the Hudson after a collision with a flock of geese killed power in both engines just after takeoff from LaGuardia Airport in New York. All 155 people on board were saved, and ''Sully'' was celebrated as an American hero.
''There was not one second of less than total concentration,'' Babbitt said. ''That crew was the epitome of professionalism and a textbook case of focus by everyone, including the controllers.''
In contrast, ''the Minneapolis overshoot is a very sad example,'' Babbitt said in his first public comments on the incident. ''As a pilot, it doesn't matter much whether they were using their laptops or re-enacting the Lincoln-Douglas debates -- what they did was wrong and they lost total situational awareness. ... They knew a lot better and they were trained a lot better.''...
The two Northwest pilots -- Capt. Timothy Cheney, 53, of Gig Harbor, Wash., and First Officer, Richard Cole, 54, of Salem, Ore. -- told the National Transportation Safety Board they lost track of time and place while working on crew scheduling on their laptops. Air traffic controllers and the airline's dispatchers were unable to communicate with the plane for 91 minutes, raising national security concerns.
In the Buffalo crash, testimony at an NTSB hearing in May indicated the pilots made a series of critical errors just before the plane experienced an aerodynamic stall and plunged to the ground.
A former airline pilot and pilots union president, Babbitt said that in both cases the pilots forgot their first job was to focus on flying the plane.
''I think that this is a sign of a much bigger problem,'' Babbott said. ''I can't regulate professionalism. With everything we know about human factors, there are still those who just ignore the common sense rules of safety.''
He contrasted the two incidents with US Airways Flight 1547, whose captain -- Chesley ''Sully'' Sullenberger -- made a precision landing in the Hudson after a collision with a flock of geese killed power in both engines just after takeoff from LaGuardia Airport in New York. All 155 people on board were saved, and ''Sully'' was celebrated as an American hero.
''There was not one second of less than total concentration,'' Babbitt said. ''That crew was the epitome of professionalism and a textbook case of focus by everyone, including the controllers.''
In contrast, ''the Minneapolis overshoot is a very sad example,'' Babbitt said in his first public comments on the incident. ''As a pilot, it doesn't matter much whether they were using their laptops or re-enacting the Lincoln-Douglas debates -- what they did was wrong and they lost total situational awareness. ... They knew a lot better and they were trained a lot better.''...
Here's an interesting video on what to tell the feds if you are involved in an accident or incident from PPRuNe's sister website APC:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/p...090804340.html
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Considering the flight hours of the F/O, I would bet he has a lot of hours as Captain. The former Eastern Airlines in the US had 13 major accidents. In every one, the F/O was flying. They discovered the F/Os were not bad pilots; the captains were not good at PNF duties.
Maybe each pilot subconsciously expected the other, junior pilot, focus his attention as needed...
Reminds me of the time a light twin landed gear up at our local airport. Each of the two flight instructors at the controls claimed the other was PIC.
Then there was the father and son in an Aeronca Champ. They flew lazy circles, descending into the ocean. Each thought the other was flying. The son was a licensed pilot, and the father was L-1011 Captain for a major.
GB
Maybe each pilot subconsciously expected the other, junior pilot, focus his attention as needed...
Reminds me of the time a light twin landed gear up at our local airport. Each of the two flight instructors at the controls claimed the other was PIC.
Then there was the father and son in an Aeronca Champ. They flew lazy circles, descending into the ocean. Each thought the other was flying. The son was a licensed pilot, and the father was L-1011 Captain for a major.
GB
would you, as a passenger , rather be on sully's flight and get your feet wet,
I'd be interested to know more about the fuel state ? ( maybe it's been considered already )
If it was a 'saving' sector, then maybe they had buckets to play with, but if not, which is usually the case, would they not have carried only SanDiego - Minn. plus an alternate, plus whatever reserve was relevant ? so - what would have been their alternate ?
Looks like they might have burned up their alternate fuel cruising past Minn. - then had to get back, so what was left when they finally landed ? What if they had been unable to land at Minn. for some unexpected reason ? Could they have still made their alternate ? Hardly a likely senario I guess, but still a possibility - what then ?
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 5th Nov 2009 at 07:18.
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OK.....this IS a rumour forum, right? So, here's the 'scoop' on this incident. Eau Claire [Wisconsin] was their alternate. They got near MSP and the weather didn't look too good to them, so they pressed on to EAU. As they were about to let down into EAU, the FA asked when they were going to land. At that time the Selcal went off and they were told that MSP was above minimums and they could come back. So they did. End of story.
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would you, as a passenger , rather be on sully's flight and get your feet wet,
Too right I would. Sully and his mate coped with a situation that was forced upon them - admirably. This lot created a situation 'cos they just plain screwed up. No excuses.
Too right I would. Sully and his mate coped with a situation that was forced upon them - admirably. This lot created a situation 'cos they just plain screwed up. No excuses.
Sure these guys 'screwed up' as you so eloquently put it, but not all heroes are heroic and if Sullengberger et al were looking where the f* they were going, they wouldnt have run into a flock of birds in the first place!
I'd say NO to cameras in the cockpit - at least not with an established set of laws that govern its use or application, otherwise, as I've personally seen, the administration can use the archived video as a treasure trove of material to sift through to discredit pilots if they blow the whistle or otherwise speak up about an issue.
I'm with AirBubba on this one and I'm a little bit perturbed.. I am honestly open to being corrected or enlightened on this on.. Please.
Examining this statement, and I may be over parsing, but bear with me here..
In the Buffalo crash, testimony at an NTSB hearing in May indicated the pilots made a series of critical errors just before the plane experienced an aerodynamic stall and plunged to the ground.
A former airline pilot and pilots union president, Babbitt said that in both cases the pilots forgot their first job was to focus on flying the plane.
''I think that this is a sign of a much bigger problem,'' Babbott said. ''I can't regulate professionalism. With everything we know about human factors, there are still those who just ignore the common sense rules of safety.''
A former airline pilot and pilots union president, Babbitt said that in both cases the pilots forgot their first job was to focus on flying the plane.
''I think that this is a sign of a much bigger problem,'' Babbott said. ''I can't regulate professionalism. With everything we know about human factors, there are still those who just ignore the common sense rules of safety.''
2. Northwest was particular egregious but not unpredictable. I dare say, many such incidents occur but are caught before the **** gets all the way to the fan.
Knowing what we do about "Human factors" should have us know that incidents like NorthWest are not only possible but inevitable
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are you kidding me?
and if Sullengberger et al were looking where the f* they were going, they wouldnt have run into a flock of birds in the first place!
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bird evasive action
we actually covered this pretty thoroughly in the thread on the hudson crash.
I first learned to fly at KPAO airport, near San Francisco. Short final was over ''the duck pond'' with the birds to match. Every landing required evasive action with birds.
So, being the dumb ass student pilot that I was, I asked my instructor (circa 1975)...which way do you go to avoid the birds? Up or down.
(this advice is for birds and plane at same altitude or nearly so...not for when birds are obviously at a much different altitude)
he responded, quite rightly, that when birds are inflight and they are faced with collision, they dive...so pull up. I added and cover your face with one arm...later on I added and put the plane into a bank to expose less of the engines (which are in the same plane) to the birds.
So, pull up and bank and cover your face with one arm ( in case the bird is too much for the windshield...one pilot friend had a bird through the window into his face!!!)
now, if there is a flock of birds on the runway, you can't dive and neither can they, so they will takeoff...so good luck there, but you are on the ground and can wait.
I first learned to fly at KPAO airport, near San Francisco. Short final was over ''the duck pond'' with the birds to match. Every landing required evasive action with birds.
So, being the dumb ass student pilot that I was, I asked my instructor (circa 1975)...which way do you go to avoid the birds? Up or down.
(this advice is for birds and plane at same altitude or nearly so...not for when birds are obviously at a much different altitude)
he responded, quite rightly, that when birds are inflight and they are faced with collision, they dive...so pull up. I added and cover your face with one arm...later on I added and put the plane into a bank to expose less of the engines (which are in the same plane) to the birds.
So, pull up and bank and cover your face with one arm ( in case the bird is too much for the windshield...one pilot friend had a bird through the window into his face!!!)
now, if there is a flock of birds on the runway, you can't dive and neither can they, so they will takeoff...so good luck there, but you are on the ground and can wait.