NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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I think the simple answer is that in the mind of some misguided pilots, because (luckily) no-one was killed or injured by this event, somehow the crew were 'semi-heroes' for actually landing the pax at destination and worthy of 'defence'. Interesting psychology, I fear, and I wonder how widespread?
Schipol
Colgan
and NorthWest.
Putting aside, for the moment, the obvious difference in the outcomes, the landing failure at Schipol (when every decent pilot should be on his best alert,(so damn them! -p.s. they were Turks, anyway)
Or Colgan ( incompetent, Regional puddle jumpers, albeit mitigated with a horrible compensation and living/working environment)
But Northwest... a lot closer to home. Pilots look at those two and see themselves (or who they would like to be, 2 pilots at the peak of their careers, impeccable..to this point.. flight records and scads of experience.) Who hasnt, on a long cruise, done some minor inappropriate thing?
Talking at face value what they said (and not guessing that something else was going on behind the sealed doors - sleeping or otherwise) the key thing to ask is,
1. Is this distraction scenario possible?
2. Can it recur? (Obviously with different pilots since these careers may be toast)
3. Could this have been predicted?
I say the answer is yes to all three points.
I think some of the 'defence' of these pilots is part of an implicit recognition (however unsaid or inelegantly put) that there are some mitigating social and structural/systemic issues at play, a proper response to which should not simply rest on decapitating the pilots and clapping ourselves on the back, job well done!
Many times we come across things that we say are solely human factors: The pilot could/should have done this or that, but we can address them as System and Interface problems.
i.e. The system announces a serious problem requiring immediate attention and action.
How? By blaring a horn. So far so good,right?
The horn blares the same for 'takeoff configuration problem' and for 'pressurization problem' - The first thing you will think of is takeoff, right? but we already are flying! So they continue, hypoxia already stripping them of judgment, alertness and finally, consciousness.
In reality, the fatality occurred from the missed checklist item. The 'system' was to provide a failsafe, but in obvious hindsight, it was insufficient.
I agree with the hornet on this one
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Polarisation. Who wants every life challenge to be utter black and white?
How nice to live a simplistic and obvious existence. As if. Second guessing the performance of these two pilots is an utter waste of time.
They are in enough trouble as is. Why attempt to magnify it or diminish it?
Soap opera is for girls.
What can be taken from this incident? PTH makes some important points.
The pilots have taken responsibility, so should we. The airbus is a boring a/c? Arguably. It may not be fatigue, it may be boredom, as he points out. The other side is a danger of letting the a/c wander into unknown (to the pilots) regime, a la 447?
How nice to live a simplistic and obvious existence. As if. Second guessing the performance of these two pilots is an utter waste of time.
They are in enough trouble as is. Why attempt to magnify it or diminish it?
Soap opera is for girls.
What can be taken from this incident? PTH makes some important points.
The pilots have taken responsibility, so should we. The airbus is a boring a/c? Arguably. It may not be fatigue, it may be boredom, as he points out. The other side is a danger of letting the a/c wander into unknown (to the pilots) regime, a la 447?
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IMHO..This would never have happened and probably several of the other incidents reffered to if "they" had not done away with the flight intergrated and monitoring... good old Flight Engineer....worth their weight in fuel!...someone must be there to "guard the guards".
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protectthehornet -
Yup, not sure there's ever been a case of inattention like this one back then.
I doubt that will ever happen.....sad.
Ya, and guys nowadays think of us as "old timers" that didn't know what we were doing.
That is so sad but so true.
Good luck in your endeavors.
In the good old days...when engines used more fuel and we had to use VOR's...and at our speeds change those VOR's every 20 minutes or so, you had a better clue about where you were and how close you were to landing.
Perhaps the super duper modern gizmos that lead you around the sky today should be changed to make pilots DO SOMETHING to keep themselves alert.
Press a button now and find the nearest airport. In the good old days you had to think, use your chart, or even look out the window.
This incident is a symptom of problems deep within the SYSTEM of flying today.
I am asking that we , as a pilot group, use these two errant pilots to help us diagnose and treat the problem.
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The Good Samaritan
Quote:
I am asking that we , as a pilot group, use these two errant pilots to help us diagnose and treat the problem.
That is just like the psychologist who was walking with the Good Samaritan when they came across the bandit's victim. The Good Samaritan said,
"This poor wounded man needs help."
The psychiatrist replied,
"No, we must find the man who did this - he needs help."
I am asking that we , as a pilot group, use these two errant pilots to help us diagnose and treat the problem.
That is just like the psychologist who was walking with the Good Samaritan when they came across the bandit's victim. The Good Samaritan said,
"This poor wounded man needs help."
The psychiatrist replied,
"No, we must find the man who did this - he needs help."
Moderator
Rex,
An excellent comment. It makes me wonder though, in all seriousness, there has been a reference to a "system" which needs help, and pilots who should be entitled to help. These would be distinct offerings of help, as the system is very different from the individuals involved.
Were the pilots to seek the help from the good samaritan(s), which would be comparable to that appropriate to the victim of the bandit, what would that help actually be for the pilots in a situation like this?
Pilot DAR
An excellent comment. It makes me wonder though, in all seriousness, there has been a reference to a "system" which needs help, and pilots who should be entitled to help. These would be distinct offerings of help, as the system is very different from the individuals involved.
Were the pilots to seek the help from the good samaritan(s), which would be comparable to that appropriate to the victim of the bandit, what would that help actually be for the pilots in a situation like this?
Pilot DAR
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protectthehornet and DC-ATE
Like what you guys write. I still fly an 8, fresh out of C check and going strong. Sometimes I am fed up that I am unable to get onto a modern aircraft in the current hiring climate but for the most part I am well chuffed at having my trusty "voice activated thrust contol" on the panel as well as the work load, always much to pay atention to on our legs.
Like what you guys write. I still fly an 8, fresh out of C check and going strong. Sometimes I am fed up that I am unable to get onto a modern aircraft in the current hiring climate but for the most part I am well chuffed at having my trusty "voice activated thrust contol" on the panel as well as the work load, always much to pay atention to on our legs.
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yambat -
Well, you didn't ask for my opinon.....hardly anyone does!!
.....but.....in my opinion you are flying the best jet transport aircraft ever built. Like I've said in these Forums before; you can take every switch/lever (except the fuel levers of course), and put them in their other than 'Normal' postion and you still have a flyable airplane. Not sure too many other, if any, transports can make that claim.
So.....don't give up the ship !!!
I still fly an 8, fresh out of C check and going strong. Sometimes I am fed up that I am unable to get onto a modern aircraft in the current hiring climate but for the most part I am well chuffed at having my trusty "voice activated thrust contol" on the panel as well as the work load, always much to pay atention to on our legs.
.....but.....in my opinion you are flying the best jet transport aircraft ever built. Like I've said in these Forums before; you can take every switch/lever (except the fuel levers of course), and put them in their other than 'Normal' postion and you still have a flyable airplane. Not sure too many other, if any, transports can make that claim.So.....don't give up the ship !!!
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DC-ATE
I think you are right about the DC8 being a great plane. My company didn't fly the 8, but the little brother, the DC9.
I don't think too many people know that during flight testing, boht the 8 and 9 were taken supersonic on purpose and did just fine thank.
That both the 8 and 9 had thrust reversers deployed during flight testing, on purpose, to see what happens. and both did fine. The 8 getting approved for inflight use (inboard I think). I've seen the 9, which wasn't approved, deploy reversers in flight and it did just fine too. but do follow the book please!!!!
The airbus may use less fuel...but doesn't have internal stairs like the 9 and if you land at a non ready field, you have a long jump on the 'bus.
and the 8 and 9 could be flown by guys who could get the most out of them...not drones pressing buttons and afraid to move the throttles.
...and I know that DC-ATE knows what was always placed beneath the rudder trim handle cover...;-)
I don't think too many people know that during flight testing, boht the 8 and 9 were taken supersonic on purpose and did just fine thank.
That both the 8 and 9 had thrust reversers deployed during flight testing, on purpose, to see what happens. and both did fine. The 8 getting approved for inflight use (inboard I think). I've seen the 9, which wasn't approved, deploy reversers in flight and it did just fine too. but do follow the book please!!!!
The airbus may use less fuel...but doesn't have internal stairs like the 9 and if you land at a non ready field, you have a long jump on the 'bus.
and the 8 and 9 could be flown by guys who could get the most out of them...not drones pressing buttons and afraid to move the throttles.
...and I know that DC-ATE knows what was always placed beneath the rudder trim handle cover...;-)
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Press the button every 30 seconds
I was on a high speed German train today and was curious of knowing what the driver of that train was doing. I noticed that the driver was constantly activating (approx. every 30 seconds) an integrated button in front of the panel. Apparently, this button is a safety precaution in case the driver falls asleep. If the driver misses the procedure for a predefined period of time, the train will decelerate and stop.
Is that a safety mechanism that could help avoid such an incident that we are discussing?
WP
Is that a safety mechanism that could help avoid such an incident that we are discussing?
WP
Last edited by worldpilot; 3rd Nov 2009 at 21:10.
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US legislation in the works
"WASHINGTON — Lawmakers are moving to ban the use of computer laptops and other personal electronic devices in airline cockpits to prevent another incident like the Northwest Airlines plane that overshot Minneapolis by 150 miles.
Sen. Byron Dorgan, chairman of the aviation subcommittee, said in an interview that his staff is working on a bill that he expects to introduce in about a week. He said he was surprised to learn after the Oct. 21 incident that the Federal Aviation Administration doesn't specifically prohibit pilots from using laptops, DVD players, MP3 players and other devices during flight except below 10,000 feet while the plane is taking off or landing...Dorgan said his bill will make an exception for "electronic flight bags" — laptops containing navigational tools issued to pilots by some airlines."
Lawmakers seek ban on laptops in airliner cockpits - USATODAY.com
Sen. Byron Dorgan, chairman of the aviation subcommittee, said in an interview that his staff is working on a bill that he expects to introduce in about a week. He said he was surprised to learn after the Oct. 21 incident that the Federal Aviation Administration doesn't specifically prohibit pilots from using laptops, DVD players, MP3 players and other devices during flight except below 10,000 feet while the plane is taking off or landing...Dorgan said his bill will make an exception for "electronic flight bags" — laptops containing navigational tools issued to pilots by some airlines."
Lawmakers seek ban on laptops in airliner cockpits - USATODAY.com
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Back in the seventies, this method was already used on French regional trains
There is obviously a bit of an issue with decelerating to a stop
whilst airborne
Rgds
The Moss
protectthehornet
Yes, point taken. Do you have suggestions for how to do it better?
Seriously.
I'd be bored out of my mind as a commercial pilot if all I had to do was flip a switch and away we go, and hope the FA wakes me up when we get there.
This sounds like a harsh comment, but it's not meant to be as bad as it probably comes across on the internet.
I can't imagine there's any professional pilot out there who didn't start out of pure love and joy rather than money.
Yes, pensions have been cut, pay has been cut, hours may be miserable with resulting challenges to family life, and airlines seem to enjoy slitting their own throats by cutting prices below the bare bones to match their competitors fares even before the global financial downtrend and last year's spike in fuel cost made that game more difficult for financial stability at any level for airlines.
In the U.S.. my understanding is there are half as many student pilots or new private pilots as a decade ago. Sounds like a future problem.
What bothers me about your posts is in what I've read (admittedly, not every word), you seem to blame the system and blindly defend the pilots in this unusual case without proposing concrete solutions to improve the way things work.
That is part of the problem. What is the pilot doing if everything is already taken care of before takeoff? His mind wanders, just like the very bright kid in a very dumb class.
This example is to try to make YOU and the others think about how we pilot planes today. And it is not the right way of doing things.
This example is to try to make YOU and the others think about how we pilot planes today. And it is not the right way of doing things.
Seriously.
I'd be bored out of my mind as a commercial pilot if all I had to do was flip a switch and away we go, and hope the FA wakes me up when we get there.
This sounds like a harsh comment, but it's not meant to be as bad as it probably comes across on the internet.
I can't imagine there's any professional pilot out there who didn't start out of pure love and joy rather than money.
Yes, pensions have been cut, pay has been cut, hours may be miserable with resulting challenges to family life, and airlines seem to enjoy slitting their own throats by cutting prices below the bare bones to match their competitors fares even before the global financial downtrend and last year's spike in fuel cost made that game more difficult for financial stability at any level for airlines.
In the U.S.. my understanding is there are half as many student pilots or new private pilots as a decade ago. Sounds like a future problem.
What bothers me about your posts is in what I've read (admittedly, not every word), you seem to blame the system and blindly defend the pilots in this unusual case without proposing concrete solutions to improve the way things work.
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Performance monitoring in the cockpit
What in-flight mechanisms are in place to monitor the performance of airline pilots in terms of situational awareness?
If such mechanisms are in place, what are the metrics in use?
WP
If such mechanisms are in place, what are the metrics in use?
WP
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It may be a generation thing .. then again, these 2 guys weren't exactly pups. But something has happened to a lot of the generation of pilots flying glass aircraft. COMPLACENCY!
I'm currently Captain on a 767, but spent years on the A320 after many, many years on the B737-200. One day on the parking lot shuttle bus, a young female 20 year old or so F/O on a B1900 asked me a question. "Excuse me , Sir." (Yikes) I see you fly the 737. Do you have any long-range navigation equipment?" Nope, I replied, just 2 VORs and ADFs ... and we usually get to our destination quite nicely. Her obvious shock was quite apparent. How do you do it? Lots of attention .. manipulation .. situational awareness .. charts, (and no auto-thrust) etc.
On the A320, I vividly remember a young F/O who was grossly involved in a newspaper while enroute. His leg. About 50 miles before top of descent, I got up to use the lav. Using the peep hole in the cockpit door, I realized the area wasn't clear and I stood in the cockpit for a moment or two waiting for the galley area to clear. At this point, ATC issued a descent clearance. The F/O duly acknowledged the clearance, initiated the descent, and then went right back to his newspaper.
I quite frankly "lost it" and expressed in no uncertain terms that especially while the aircraft was in a "dynamic" state and with no other pilot in position, that it was absolutely crazy to not be totally monitoring the aircraft. His look said it all. I was an ornery old fart from a decrepit generation.
I do agree with some previous posters. I think modern generation aircraft with the easily-acquired, ultimate and total faith in their technology breed complacency. I have too many hours "flying" the damn things to allow the technology to fly me. No laptop, crossword puzzle, or discussion will ever distract me.
I'm currently Captain on a 767, but spent years on the A320 after many, many years on the B737-200. One day on the parking lot shuttle bus, a young female 20 year old or so F/O on a B1900 asked me a question. "Excuse me , Sir." (Yikes) I see you fly the 737. Do you have any long-range navigation equipment?" Nope, I replied, just 2 VORs and ADFs ... and we usually get to our destination quite nicely. Her obvious shock was quite apparent. How do you do it? Lots of attention .. manipulation .. situational awareness .. charts, (and no auto-thrust) etc.
On the A320, I vividly remember a young F/O who was grossly involved in a newspaper while enroute. His leg. About 50 miles before top of descent, I got up to use the lav. Using the peep hole in the cockpit door, I realized the area wasn't clear and I stood in the cockpit for a moment or two waiting for the galley area to clear. At this point, ATC issued a descent clearance. The F/O duly acknowledged the clearance, initiated the descent, and then went right back to his newspaper.
I quite frankly "lost it" and expressed in no uncertain terms that especially while the aircraft was in a "dynamic" state and with no other pilot in position, that it was absolutely crazy to not be totally monitoring the aircraft. His look said it all. I was an ornery old fart from a decrepit generation.
I do agree with some previous posters. I think modern generation aircraft with the easily-acquired, ultimate and total faith in their technology breed complacency. I have too many hours "flying" the damn things to allow the technology to fly me. No laptop, crossword puzzle, or discussion will ever distract me.
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Imagine the remake of 'Runway 08' (or 'Flight into Danger' if you prefer). Long since retired fighter pilot passenger breaks into the cockpit to assume command of the aircraft because the flightcrew are incapacitated - not by food poisoning but because the captain can't get his laptop to install Windows 7 while the FO is stuck on a particularly difficult Sudoku. Then the old fighter has to confront flightdeck technology even more complicated than his kids' XBox...