NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots

[CONF iture]

Originally Posted by dweeks

Just what exactly do you DO with the wind, ISA deviation, etc?
I see no point to logging that stuff if you don't put it to some use.

Performance wise, very useful.
It may also help you to understand why you're running late or early on the flight plan.

[dweeks]

I think that being early or late on the fix ETA would have most pilots concluding the wind aloft was not as forecast.

Go by the fix, look at the flight plan, look at the wind readout on the ND.

I don't really care what the wind was 15 waypoints back.

Time is the issue, and time directly correlates to fuel.

To be sure, ISA + - 10 has performance implication for TAS, but not nearly as much as getting to altitude in the first place.

I'm all for information, but I like to keep it relevant and meaningful. I don't like make-work rules that give me data I don't really need.

[md80fanatic]

Over the years there was a lot of talk about fully automated cockpits, or single pilot ones at least. Luckily the necessary human factor remained. But this incident could make people wonder if human pilots are still needed.... after all, the autopilot still flies the bird.

I wonder if the media frenzy over this incident was intended to bang home this very notion in the minds of passengers?

[PAXboy]

I think the media frenzy was to sell papers (=adverts), get eyeballs on TVs (=adverts) and ears to radios (=adverts). A journalists prime directive is, now, to sell the medium and get people watching to drive up the numbers. Any other achievement (like accuracy) is secondary.

[p51guy]

dweeks, It doesn't seem you understand much about the aviation community. Maybe you should just stay away.

[Pilot DAR]

I'm going to stand on Rottenray's side on this one, as I agree with the points he has presented. Yes, the pilots are entitled to a fair hearing, but, pending more information, it sounds at this point as though there was some cockpit procedure well below what any pilot or passenger should have to accept, even if no one was hurt. If there were a systems failure which prevented communications, I cannot believe that it could not be worked around for 90 odd minutes!? Anyone got a cell phone? Call the center, squawk 7600, and I'm sure other communication means I know nothing of. If there was evidence these were attempted, let's see it. CVR to verify a diligent effort? Comm failure, continue to your cleared point, then go where you are supposed to (directly, on time) squawking 7600? I've done it more than once!

IF you are outraged and you are a passenger or not an airline pilot...you can judge BY NOT BUYING TICKETS ON NORTHWEST/DELTA

I dis-agree. It appears that there was a human failing here, the facts will come out. In the mean time, not flying Northwest is one of many means of expressing outrage, and probably the least effective. Northwest did not fail here, two pilots appear to have. Who regulates pilots? Not Northwest - for the most part - it's the FAA. Who is the FAA accountable to? Every U.S. citizen, and all others flying on U.S. carriers. All of that very much larger group of people be they pilots or just regular people, have not only the privilage, but actually the responsibility to make their voices heard when they feel that the service or safety margins were not what they should have been. I think that any person is entitled to express their opinion as to what length of time it is acceptable for an aircraft to continue in flight apparently poorly or completely unattended.

'Sounds to me as though the common opinion is that an hour and a half is too long for the pilots to not be doing their job. I'm betting that even 1 -2 minutes is pushing it in most people's opinion!

If two pilots, regardless of experience and clean records, have their feelings hurt right now, too bad. Let them step forward with a really credible explanation, backed up with some evidence of what they did right during that time, or take the public wrath due such inattention when the investigation is complete. In our society it cannot be expected that public wrath will entirely be held until the end. We didd not wait until the completion of the investigation to compliment "Sully" on great flying! They should count themselves very fortunate they are here to take the wrath, and not at the front of a bent aircraft that glided in fuel exhausted - and try to tell me that can't happen to an airliner!

The people who pay to fly have a right to feel secure, and attended to, and voice displeasure when they think they are not!

Pilot DAR

[protectthehornet]

Quote:The people who pay to fly have a right to feel secure, and attended to, and voice displeasure when they think they are not!

Pilot DAR
----


And the pilots have a right to feel secure...where were you when the PBGC failed to cover our full pensions? Where were you when we took 50% pay cuts to offset those impossible fuel prices?....yeah!

---

also...NORTHWEST does regulate their pilots. They hire them, train them, evaluate them, provide them with regulations and "HOW TO FLY"" books calle FOMs among others.

[goeasy]

Well, I am a pilot of some 30years. If the facts turn out to be as currently reported, then these guys are an embarrassment to the profession, and themselves. I will be very disappointed if the FAA ever give them the chance to repeat it. What are standards for?

[rottenray]

Snaproll writes:
Rottenray, if you want any credibility on this board, don't compare the job to driving a bus. For one, it's insulting and two, it shows how little you know about the job and the profession as a whole. I know you are not a frequent flier and perhaps you should remember that before you judge these guys.

Snap, I'm former USAF. I worked on comm systems and radar systems and the occasional INS. C141, C5, C135. If you'd like T/N I'll be glad to oblige.

I've been exposed to pilots who were fully, completely engaged in their profession.

I've had a dozen or so friends who were PPL. One used to fly over forest fires in Arizona and radio back so that the tankers could hit the right spots. Another clipped half the antlers off a buck deer which ran onto the runway at KGCN and landed without even breaking a sweat after a go-round. I was with him when it happened, plenty of fuel, Tony merely remarked "he's gonna take a hit" as he pulled up and throttled up. Another buddy used his 172 to pull gliders up - while the "next of kin" rode comfortably and got to see daddy or mommy or uncle go gliding.

I'm calling your credibility into question here.

When is it acceptable to not fly the aircraft you're in charge of?

Why should my credentials be called into question to point this out?

Frankly, I don't need your vote of credibility.

Pure hubris on your part.

This should be something any dedicated pilot looks at as a learning tool: "That could happen to me, I just need to make sure it never does."

There could be some mitigating circumstances: Being too damned tired to stay awake, being to sick to concentrate. Being too knifed-up by someone who invades your flight deck.

But being too absorbed in a discussion? Too absorbed in figuring out a scheduling system on a laptop computer?

We both know that if something had suddenly gone pear-shaped, the joes in that cockpit would have been at a severe disadvantage to deal with the situation.


As far as comparing transit pilots to bus drivers, I think it is quite fair.

If you look at it from the perspective of responsibilities.

Both of you have numerous lives in you hands. You have essentially the same responsibilities - keep the pax alive and don't wreck the vehicle. In between the two, get to the destination on time to keep the bosses and beancounters happy.

I have great respect for any pro operator - air or ground - so long as they take their position responsibly and realize that they have [my/your/our] lives in their hands when they operate whatever vehicle it is they "drive."

Not flying your airplane to its destination is not acceptable, that was my point. Admitting that you were too distracted to land at your destination is not acceptable. And not having a damnably good excuse means you should certainly get fired.

Until de-regulation, I think pilots were pretty much self-policing. Since, not so much - I think most of you are so in fear of your job that it makes it nearly impossible for one of you to pull aside someone from management and report a dangerous attitude.

(Management will usually think, in these modern times, 'oh, hey, a squeaky wheel, better grease that on out the door before it squeaks in the wrong note.')


In this case, I think two dangerous attitudes aligned. Cheese.

"We have so much experience between us, we don't even need to pay attention!"

That, I think, was the attitude that got them revoked.


Seriously - I know most of the pilots flying are much better than that. I just have had a hard time with pro pilots in this thread trying to find any justification at all for the incident.

Fortunately, no oncoming traffic was there - so there were no TCAS RA's to go ignored or reacted it inappropriately.

I won't climb on the "fuel reserve" bandwagon, except to note that fortunately, nothing leaked.

But the possibility existed for virtually anything which can go wrong with a modern airliner to happen, and these guys were pretty much in a different county. In a post-9-11 country, you simply don't stay out of radio contact. And, using basic common sense, you don't leave it up to your FA to notify you when you've overflown your destination

So, if you can explain to me how this is even remotely acceptable, I'll be glad to listen.

Until then, don't go questioning my credibility - question your own. Think about whatever license you hold, and how you'll protect it if you follow the same sad path of screwups.

As far as I know... Most of the evidence points back to the old saw, "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate."

That, I think, is successful.

Other attitudes..?

Not so much.


All y'all have a good night!


(And, cheers and a toast to the folks who take their jobs seriously - love you at the pointy end!)


...

[rottenray]

I had thought that the great majority of posts in this thread had implied that the pilots were wrong. That said, nobody expected themselves to repeat the same error.

Loma - A few voices have been rather strident about "waiting for the full investigation," or "FAA / NTSB jumping the gun."

A few others have compared it to the other Delta which did a taxiway landing - which really isn't comparable. That was a mistake, and, frankly, a mistake which was well carried off. I suspect that crew knew, during the last 2 minutes, that they had really screwed the pooch.

About 30% of the posts here are "pilots" who believe that the crew in question were railroaded for A) telling the truth, B) lying, or C) simply making a mistake.

The mistake this crew made was of an incredible magnitude - their mistake was to not fly their plane.

I'm not maligning pilots who take their profession seriously, and as I have stated in a few other posts, I know you guys are in the majority.

But the few in this thread who have "called" me for making the statement I did in this post really need to think about what they do for a living.

I use public transportation whenever I can. I travel by bus when I can as I enjoy the slow-moving view out of the big windows. I fly when time is a factor, and I still try to enjoy it - even though it is virtually impossible to buy a ticket for any airline which allows you to be comfortable through any part of the flight. (I smoke, and I like 3 squares a day, and I like to at least wink at the joe who's driving.)

I don't want ANY of you taking your task lightly.

I give a sh*t less about "cultural" and financial issues. If I could change those, I would. I have NEVER booked anything other than a 1st class ticket, although, I have given up my seats to folks with babies so they had the extra room.

I understand sleepy, but would never take you anywhere in my Jeep should I be too sleepy to drive us there safely. Ditto sick, drunk, whatever.


At some point, all of the things that can go wrong become a "risk" associated with the "job."

When you think of it in those terms, you've become someone I don't want at the controls of whatever I'm in.


I mentioned Greyhound drivers in another post.

Perhaps I should explain why.

Many 'Hound drivers use their job to visit family and transport family.

I've never met a driver who didn't have a goal in mind.

To me, they're very similar to the transport pilots from 25 or 30 years ago - very, very proud of their profession and very dedicated to safety.

Flying in contemporary terms is far different.

It's rare you meet the FD crew. Now, if you happen to, it usually means there will be some kind of &^*(& delay.

I truly miss seeing the guys who are going to fly my ass wherever it's going. I miss the captain taking a last look down the aisle.

Now, flying is like riding a bus, except you never meet the driver.

And, given the performance of some pilots, it's about as hit - or - miss as riding a charter bus. (Tip: If you're going somewhere by bus, use Greyhound and avoid charters, as charters have about 7X more kerfluffles as 'hound.)

I think the carriers need to engage in some "off the record" discussions and - I hate to say this - agree as a group on fares.

Catering to folks who will, oddly, put their asses 5 miles in the air based on the lowest ticket price, has, really, made flying more aggravating for me - and much more frightening.

I don't object to the "SLF" acronym, as I know it is meant in mostly good humor.

And I know that some times, a carrier could have made more money off my weight by flying an extra bit of cargo - fresh roses come to mind.

But, even booking a 1st ticket these days doesn't ensure 1st treatment. There are always "mitigating circumstances" now. And 1st class is now roughly (meaning exactly) what I was accustomed when forced to fly in buisness class 25 years ago.


Do I fly frequently?

No.

Do I like the whole concept that, if I needed to go from Denver, Colorado, to the south pole, that I could book a flight?

Yes.

I've made some harsh comments about transit pilots in this thread.

I don't think I have anything to apologize for in that respect, as my harsh comments have been directed at inept pilots and those who defend them.

Rest assured, I'll be flying in the near future. And, I'll be booking not on price, but on who has the best safety record at the time.

(and perhaps peanuts... just couldn't leave that out!)

Really, don't your beancounters even consider reputation?


Ciao 4 Now,
Ray
ray [@] rottenray [.] com

[rottenray]

Rottenray,
As a non-pro pilot and someone who has been critical of the two pilots as well as supportive of meaningful sanctions, I think many of your points are, well, Motherhood and Apple Pie.

SD -

Motherhood and Apple Pie are a really good working concept for keeping people safe at FL350.

One of the sad facts about commercial flight "in our modern times" is that it is purely controlled by cost. Before the US de-regulated the industry, it was primarily controlled by A) being on time, and B) being safe, and C) the perks.

I haven't looked at your profile, so I don't know if you're a CPL.

If you're a transit pilot, I certainly feel for you. It has to be a mess and an ugly deal most days of the week.

I hadn't set out to demean anyone, but a crew composed of 2 10,000 + plus pilots who cannot make their destination, is, in my mind, a crew which shouldn't be flying.

Had there been weather, fatigue (a true and real factor) or illness, or some other "real" factor, I would be more forgiving.

(Not that I'm in a position to forgive or not.)

But this pair of characters admitted to being too distracted to fly their plane.

That, in my opine, is grounds for revocation.

I care not to put my hairy, fat butt in their care. Even if I had a smooth baby's butt, I wouldn't be keen on letting them fly it around.

At least they were honest - although I am hearing a lot of chatter from my gay buds about the possibility that these joes decided to join the "mile high fudgy club" and just won't admit to it.

I care not. ******* anyone on the flight deck is not what I pay you to do, and not what I board your flight expecting.

I do try to linger around and try to at at least shake the hands of the 1st and Captain, if I don't have to rush to catch a connecting flight.

There are a lot of "what-ifs" we could go through, but we really don't need to.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

Do that, you're "golden" no matter the outcome.

Sit on your fat, underpaid butt and act like it's a civil servant's job?

Be too distracted to meet your destination?

Gimme a break.

Chesley and his 1st landed deadstick in the Hudson, and still, there were a few vulture lawyers who were willing to "case" it on speculation.

Those are not my kind of people, as I would really prefer to trust the folks up front. I know they've spent a lot of time getting there.

All I'm hoping is that you - all ya'll who are flying the magnificent aircraft I'm SLF on - take it seriously.

There is nothing more impressive than taking off inside any of the current commercial jets. A 735 has it's own special climb, which tends to put your head back on the seat. The A33 series gains an ethereal quiet at cruise. The 74X (can't count how many I've been on) is the best example of a very powerful aircraft that simply ignores weather and turbulence. Going back a few years, any 72X is a lot of fun for anyone who has ever been in a Cessna, as the ride is more sedate but not too much different from a pax perspective.

The DC-10 is perhaps the most striking and noteworthy. Moderate turbulence on a -10 was sort of aggravating, as the craft compensated as best it could, which resulted in a ride that was sort of like surfing with a board about 300' away from where one's body was.

All of them, wonderful craft - amazing and awe-inspiring. Hundreds of tons, pushed into flight by very small spinning blades and clever wings.

Any pilot who doesn't see the beauty of modern airliners doesn't deserve a spot in the pointy end. If it doesn't continually fascinate you, then save us all a lot of sh*t and just get a job somewhere else.

That the 74, or the A380 flies, isn't a miracle. Both are the product of the best human intellect and endeavor.

Every flight is special. At least to me - I still revel in the technology and the skill it takes to make the technology work.

On that note, I'll end...

With this: Being able to trust you folks at the pointy end is the most comforting factor when flying. Basically we all know that unforeseen things can cause a crash - what we hope for are attentive pilots who, even if they don't know everything, are at least paying attention.


Cheers.
RottenRay
ray [@] rottenrat [.] com]

[rottenray]

the only people on this forum who should even consider passing judgement in a professional way are those who are real airline pilots flying jets.

Hornet -

er, well, I don't even know where to begin.

You can easily identify me as a non-pilot.

I'm passing on my opinion to pilots, based upon how I would have reacted to being on this flight. If that's a huge problem for you, I really don't know what to suggest.

Now, specifically to you, Hornet:

Obviously, being a pilot is not the exclusive club that it once was. This is perhaps due to incidents like the one under discussion.

You seem to think that the folks who sit in the back and pay your salary are not entitled to any feedback.

That we cannot possibly know when a situation has turned to pure crap.

In that, you are mistaken. If you can, name one acceptable reason for that flight's overshoot.

If you don't have a valid argument against me voicing an opinion here, then please don't presume to tell me whether I can or cannot voice it.

I haven't demeaned your profession. I have simply stated what most of us "SLF" find aggravating, and have stated in no uncertain terms that when you, as a pilot, take responsibility for an aircraft with a lot of my butts and my friend's butt as cargo, that you need to take full responsibility for the flight.

That you can't knowingly "blow off" where we're supposed to land.

That you can't not fly the plane.

I don't find this unreasonable.

Perhaps you really do think of us who pay your salary as some sort of parasite, something to be dealt with with scorn.

Here's how it sits.

If you're defending the guys who didn't fly their plane against me, a piece of smarter-than-average baggage, then you REALLY need to think about your career before it affects lots of people.

I haven't made any words about tearing down the airline industry. If you read what I've written, you'll notice that I have a great respect for it.

I don't want this to escalate into a sh*tpot of comments.


I respect the industry - but I want to mention that these guys deserve what the got.


And, frankly, those of you who aren't acting like "classic" captains prolly should be.


WTF?!

Do any of you line captains really think that we (self loading freight) WANT to think the worst of you?

Write an essay: "How I Think My Job Is Better Assuming That My Pax Think I Hate Them."


To Close:

Hornet, it's not the good old boys club that it used to be. Some of us still believe in your skill, but a lot of us are dumber than dog-drop and just don't care. For those of us who still believe that captains and firsts are outstanding people, well, we're faced with things like this topic. And it seems that all y'all defend pilots who screw up.

I think that for every Sulley there are about 2,000 commercial pilots who don't know their ass from a smoking hole in the ground.

The Delta flight didn't crash, so thankfully there are no next of kin to wish well at.

About 1/3 of this thread has been productive in discussing ways which could preclude such another "total absorption" with something not flight related.

That, I'm glad to see.

But I don't really see any true soul-searching here. There are a fair number of posts which say something along the line of "there but for the grace of God..."


Something I want all the CPL to think about - I'm not telling you your job, merely asking what sort of everyday thing could you use to overcome the obvious "don't give a ****" malaise that overtook the high-time pilots in this incident.

I realize that times are tough in your biz - times are tough in my field (web consulting) as well.

Someone mentioned embedding simple games into flight software, which (understandably) met with numerous reasons against.

Can't be done. Well, could be, but would cost $billions.

However, an attention keeper might be a version of Trivial Pursuit, focused on minutia about airports.

I don't mean this as a joke.

Would a ring of flipcards holding vital information about all the places you might be tasked with flying into be amusing?

Just a thought.

Again, simply trying to support the biz.

[BOAC]

rr - I'll leave my clear personal views on this incident aside.

Of course you are entitled to your views - 'you' are after all our customers, and a business that stops listening to them................

What you will find amongst the posters on PPrune are pilots who are basically insecure in their own ability, status or whatever. Any question that asks 'why'/'what'/ 'how did that happen' etc is instinctively met with an attack on the poster who is either 'not a pilot so cannot comment' or gifted with poor skills in English/punctuation/syntax/grammar etc. and sometimes even an outburst of 'I'm the greatest' which even the most basic psychiatrist can readily identify.

If you have the stamina, I exhort you to stick with it and ignore those posters. If you go too far off the rails the mods should 'guide' the direction of the thread.

[fernytickles]

the only people on this forum who should even consider passing judgement in a professional way are those who are real airline pilots flying jets.

And as we all know, only REAL airline pilots fly JETs..... the big shiny ones (jets I mean, not pilots... tho.......)

[captjns]

And you thought all we had to worry about was airline failures, outsourcing of regional carriers by the legacies, lower pay, no retirement benefits and the hits just keep on coming. And now for your enjoyment in anger, a crew overflies their destination… a crew lands on a taxiway.

You think there’s angst amongst us? Yes!!! there is a lot of angst on both sides of the fence regarding these recent incidences. Many in the profession feel betrayed by what happened. What better way to vent one’s frustration than on PPrune or APC? Many expressed opinions range from a “pat on the back, and don’t do it again”, to “exile these guys to the city dump”. But again… what better way to vent one’s frustration than on PPrune or APC?

In recent years, through informational picketing and ad campaigns, we have been bringing to the attention of our level of dedication and professionalism to the industry, along with decreased pay and benefit issues amongst the traveling public. Well in the eyes of many this incident may have brought the profession back to square one in the eyes of the public.

Many pilots, including myself, are approached and asked questions about the two most recent incidents. The questions, be it from passengers, or friends, range between from the most valid to the most asinine.

The other day, while boarding was in progress, I was approached by one of our witty sponsors. With a wry smile, he offered me the battery from his laptop so I could stay engaged and awake during the flight. Oh how I wanted to say to him, “You are no longer a welcome guest on my jet.” I declined his offer returned to greeting my passengers. Now should I thank the crews for this? Well perhaps… but at the end of the day, it’s a lot better than being asked how many drinks I had before showing up for work.

The crew in question will be dealt with in a manner the FAA, and Delta deem appropriate. Cheney and Cole will resume their lives. Most important is to remember… no matter how bad you think you have it… sit back take a deep breath and take look at these two unfortunates. Posters on both sides of the fence, who were in such disagreed, can agree that these two have it a lot worse than perhaps the rest of us.

[worldpilot]

Pilots are also humans and are error-prone

Thanks, captjns, for your perspective. I share your thoughts. Apparently, there is generally a growing perception that airline pilots are unaware of their responsibilities in the cockpit. It is always business as usual.

So, my question is: Are pilots taking too much risks by virtue of negligence, ignorance, carelessness and thoughtlessness in the cockpit? If not, what convincing evidence are out there to prove the opposite?

Please note that I'm just asking a question.

WP

[Pilot DAR]

I had to think a bit more about the comparison between airline pilots (which I am not) and bus drivers (which I am also not). It does not mean that I don't understand something about both of their roles though...

I'm sure that as a commecial airline passenger, at some point, I have unknowingly been the recipient of a remarkable demonstration of piloting skill, that kept my day good. I am certainly aware that othe apssengers have.

But you know, I have many times witnessed first hand remarkable bus driving skill, both in collision avoidance, and simply precise awareness of where an immense vehicle was relative to other vehicles, buildings, fruit stands etc. I can't imagne a 757 pilot deliberately taxiing the aircraft within two inchs of a building without contacting anything. I have witnessed this many times in a bus.

So it is fair to compare airline pilots to bus drivers, probably not - apples to oranges. In some cases the bus driver has to get it right the one and only time, a second attempt at the approach is just not going to happen. Could the bus driver had been inattentive to the operation of the bus for an hour and a half? No, it would have crashed in the first few seconds of inattention, and made the news in just as big a way!

Oh, and

And the pilots have a right to feel secure...where were you when the PBGC failed to cover our full pensions? Where were you when we took 50% pay cuts to offset those impossible fuel prices?....yeah!

I meant security of LIFE not money. I could not give a care about a pilot's pension planning. Honestly, if a pilot, or any other person cannot make a living acceptable to them at the job they are doing, it's time to look for a different job! If you want a big pension, save your money yourself, that's what a lot of us do!

It certainly seems silly to try to distract a flight safety discussion with issues like pensions and pay cuts! What does a pension have to do with flying the plane properly and attentively? If you're that worried about how much money you have, start your own thread about that, and see how many posters respond!

Pilot DAR

[SDFlyer]

'Ray,
If you read my earlier posts, and my more active posts on a non-Comm forum (link provided on request), I am very critical of the failure of both of these pilots in that flight. It is inexcusable. It can be explained of course, but tout comprendre, ce n'est pas tout pardonner to bastardize a french saying. They have learned their lesson, doubtless.

I made my objections to your earlier post which I won't repeat. They didn't involve disagreement about whether a serious error was made. No I'm not a commercial pilot. Most comm pilots here are not excusing the behavior of those two. Many are trying to put it in a larger context, which people like you and me need to understand better.

But it is true: perhaps a bit more Motherhood and Apple Pie is in order. I think that a very large dose of M and A Pie has just been administered to the whole profession by a regulatory authority.

[protectthehornet]

It is to laugh!

rottenray, pilot dar and the like

you speak of the responsibility of pilots for the safety of passengers and you are right.

there is a contract between the pilot and the passenger. I take care of you while you are aboard my plane.

When I bring up the other side of the contract, you disparage the concept that you must take care of us...even saying that I should save my own money for my pension. but I have a contract that says I will get a pension...oh and the company through that out in bankruptcy. and the federal agency to back up my pensions won't cover the whole thing (maybe 20 cents on the dollar).

but you are not outraged at that...its my own fault.

so I say to you. go up to your pilot and tell him, before you board the plane that you will expect him to take good care of you and not overfly the airport. he will smile and say of course...and then think: what a ducking jerk.


And gee, working on comm radios makes you an expert on pilots...HA. why don't you explain what a stuck MIC is? And how a stuck mic can put you out of touch with ATC! Its happened to me...but I figured it out in a couple of minutes or so. but it does happen and the industry still hasn't taken proper steps to combat it.

or maybe ATC was having a shift change and didn't properly brief a handoff?

ALL I AM SAYING in this case is to wait for the full report. YES a pilot is responsible and YES these guys were not at the top of their game.

But the roots of this problem and virtually every safety problem today are from the deregulation of the industry some 30 years ago.

I want pilots to be super...just great all the time. but if you want that, what is YOUR side of the equation? what do YOU owe in order to get a super pilot? I'll tell you right now, you and the traveling public aren't keeping their side up...and sadly, pilots are just human enough to suddenly realize that and falter on their side too.


I've made my views on cockpit professionalism known on this forum. It is shocking how things have gotten so tacky up in front. But some clown who used to work on radios isn't the person to pass judgement.

[captjns]

Regulation or deregulation a disciplined pilot does not make. It comes from within. Nor is Regulation or deregulation a valid excuse for no radio contact for more than 70 minutes, violation of FARs and company SOPs… again it comes from within.

...And how a stuck mic can put you out of touch with ATC! Its happened to me...but I figured it out in a couple of minutes or so. but it does happen and the industry still hasn't taken proper steps to combat it.

I have to disagree on the above point as excerpted from our QRH. We had similar procedures in previous carriers too.


MIC SELECTOR switches

(all audio selector panels) . . . . . . . . . . . .FLT INT
This deselects radios and stops radio

transmissions.