Pilot handling skills under threat, says Airbus
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ladusvala
"How long does it take to tune the VHF radio? Most of the time you have it preselected already otherwise you set it while you read it back to the controller, i.e. it takes a few short seconds and then you go back to monitoring"
I take it you take the time to write down the new given frequency? If you are not noting down, you should be.
"How long does it take to tune the VHF radio? Most of the time you have it preselected already otherwise you set it while you read it back to the controller, i.e. it takes a few short seconds and then you go back to monitoring"
I take it you take the time to write down the new given frequency? If you are not noting down, you should be.
Eight years flying the Airbus and never left normal law.
Real people on board = leave the automatics in and maximise situational awareness. Manual flight immediately raises flight deck workload.
If you passed the IR/last sim then you clearly have at least basic instrument skills.
Practise your instrument flying skills in the sim every 6 months - without real people on board!
In short, life's too short for manual flight in the commercial arena. As a pax, knowing what you know, with your wife and kids on board, would you prefer the automatics/flight director to be on or off?
Real people on board = leave the automatics in and maximise situational awareness. Manual flight immediately raises flight deck workload.
If you passed the IR/last sim then you clearly have at least basic instrument skills.
Practise your instrument flying skills in the sim every 6 months - without real people on board!
In short, life's too short for manual flight in the commercial arena. As a pax, knowing what you know, with your wife and kids on board, would you prefer the automatics/flight director to be on or off?
Sorry, this is the type of attitude that results in a split-S into the ocean at night after a major instrument failure. Zero hand flying skills, zero decison making without the A/P involved, zero chance of functioning in a tough situation like flying and emergency descent with smoke in the cockpit with a standby "peanut" gyro. I'd want the pilots skilled in all A/P modes as well as all abnormal flight modes including hand flying. A pilot with your standard of autopilot all the time and hand flying only in the Sim twice a year is worthless as a well rounded airman. Where is your idea of a "Auto Pilot" Captain going to be if a large goose shatters the radome, and takes out the AOA vanes and most of the pitot tubes? Good luck.
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Those who want to keep their hand flying skills are just idiots who believe themselves "the right stuff" test pilots.
Real people on board = leave the automatics in and maximise situational awareness. Manual flight immediately raises flight deck workload.
In short, life's too short for manual flight in the commercial arena. As a pax, knowing what you know, with your wife and kids on board, would you prefer the automatics/flight director to be on or off?
I recall an occasion several years ago when, just after rotation (on a latest generation Fly-By-Wire airplane) at ~ 50 ft RA and long before we had a "positive climb" indication the Flight Director suddenly commanded an immediate hard right turn. Needless to say there was no incident because I WAS FLYING. With the likes of those pro-automatics people uttering comments such as those quoted above, were this a pilotless airplane such a non-event would in no uncertain terms have resulted in a crash (and likely major loss of life of SLF & crew).
You can automate actions, but it'll be a very long time before you can automate REAL TIME, IN-FLIGHT DECISION MAKING with an infinite permutation of differing situations. The two are very different issues. Good luck to you fellas
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I hope no-one is suggesting that if the A/P broke, I or anyone else would be unable to cope. We've all been in fairly extreme situations in the sim (certainly a lot worse than just the A/P and A/THR being off) and dealt with it fine.
josmison - i'm not bashing military pilots but as you mentioned it: It was an ex-tornado pilot who nearly wrote off a MYT A321 with a tailstrike, risking his and about 200 other lives, whilst practising his hand flying skills!! This illustrates my point exactly. Whether or not you admit it to yourself, by "taking it all out", you are increasing the chances of level bust, tailstrike (see above) and other undesirable events. Flying for me is about minimising this type of thing.
Whatsalizad - So you would advocate switching all the ADRs off too to simulate the birdstrike situation you describe?
josmison - i'm not bashing military pilots but as you mentioned it: It was an ex-tornado pilot who nearly wrote off a MYT A321 with a tailstrike, risking his and about 200 other lives, whilst practising his hand flying skills!! This illustrates my point exactly. Whether or not you admit it to yourself, by "taking it all out", you are increasing the chances of level bust, tailstrike (see above) and other undesirable events. Flying for me is about minimising this type of thing.
Whatsalizad - So you would advocate switching all the ADRs off too to simulate the birdstrike situation you describe?
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No, Whyeyeman, of course the A/P was not in. It was the F/D that commanded this, but I was using that as an example of what can happen with automatics.... and especially to all those "pilotless airplane" "automatics" yea-sayers. A non-event can so very easily turn into catastrophic loss of life (without us there).
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Pilot skills
More insight into the pilot handeling skills? Link below; Maybe already on this posting?
http://www.alpa.tv/DesktopModules/Ul...47&portalId=14
http://www.alpa.tv/DesktopModules/Ul...47&portalId=14
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Whyeman
Is it your opinion that hand flying an airliner in a VMC day, non-busy airspace, not being fatigued, etc... Poses any risk?
If so, visual approaches should be banned, let alone circling approaches!
I have hand flown like that... With my wife and my brother seating in the pax cabin. I feel no remorse, really.
However I see your point.
I would not handfly in IMC, busy environment, etc... Because when you can't see, you never know if you have missed something and may be not readily apparent you did until it is too late. I would not hand fly in many circumstances with or without my family on board.
When a pilot is too passive tends to become sleepy, well back in the performance curve. Switching off AP/FD wakes you up and moves you to the optimum in the curve. In that case you are safer than auto flying. It might be the difference between detecting or not an A/THR subtle disconnection, for instance.
Furthermore, in the event of a failure involving handflying, non skilled pilots will have a lot of extra workload and stress, putting them too far to the right of the curve. Not so with pilots skilled in hand flying.
I think Automation is great, that we must master automated flight... and keep skilled in handflying so that safety is at a maximum.
Is it your opinion that hand flying an airliner in a VMC day, non-busy airspace, not being fatigued, etc... Poses any risk?
If so, visual approaches should be banned, let alone circling approaches!
I have hand flown like that... With my wife and my brother seating in the pax cabin. I feel no remorse, really.
However I see your point.
I would not handfly in IMC, busy environment, etc... Because when you can't see, you never know if you have missed something and may be not readily apparent you did until it is too late. I would not hand fly in many circumstances with or without my family on board.
When a pilot is too passive tends to become sleepy, well back in the performance curve. Switching off AP/FD wakes you up and moves you to the optimum in the curve. In that case you are safer than auto flying. It might be the difference between detecting or not an A/THR subtle disconnection, for instance.
Furthermore, in the event of a failure involving handflying, non skilled pilots will have a lot of extra workload and stress, putting them too far to the right of the curve. Not so with pilots skilled in hand flying.
I think Automation is great, that we must master automated flight... and keep skilled in handflying so that safety is at a maximum.
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I'm firmly in the use it or lose it camp. Flying the boeing it wasn't such a problem, but flying the Airboos I take every chance I get to turn everything off and actually fly the thing (or as close as you can get to "flying" in normal law).
I'm a co-pilot, so I rely on the boss to positively encourage turning off the automation, when appropriate. It is pleasing that at least 50% of captains I fly with are always prompting their F/Os' to take the opportunity to handfly. The other 50% are either completely against it or look incredibly worried when it is brought up in the brief that it is a good day for a visual approach.
I wouldn't criticise the latter 50%, it's not my place to do so and they sign the tech log so the automatics stay in, end of story. I think they are missing something however, and it is no coincidence that in my experience, it is the chaps who point blank refuse a visual or the use of manual thrust who generally react in something approaching mild panic when something goes wrong, particularly with the automation. Just disconnecting everything and putting the aircraft where you want it doesn't seem to enter their heads.
In short, relying entirely on the automatics apart from a six monthly jaunt in a hydraulic box isn't going to make you a "safer" pilot. Each to their own.
I'm a co-pilot, so I rely on the boss to positively encourage turning off the automation, when appropriate. It is pleasing that at least 50% of captains I fly with are always prompting their F/Os' to take the opportunity to handfly. The other 50% are either completely against it or look incredibly worried when it is brought up in the brief that it is a good day for a visual approach.
I wouldn't criticise the latter 50%, it's not my place to do so and they sign the tech log so the automatics stay in, end of story. I think they are missing something however, and it is no coincidence that in my experience, it is the chaps who point blank refuse a visual or the use of manual thrust who generally react in something approaching mild panic when something goes wrong, particularly with the automation. Just disconnecting everything and putting the aircraft where you want it doesn't seem to enter their heads.
In short, relying entirely on the automatics apart from a six monthly jaunt in a hydraulic box isn't going to make you a "safer" pilot. Each to their own.
Whenever one starts to freelance, no matter how well intentioned, that is a precursor to disaster
If you passed the IR/last sim then you clearly have at least basic instrument skills.
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whatever that is supposed to mean
whatever that is supposed to mean
indeed!
I guess 'freelancing' means (and I meant) going off on your own, doing a little bit 'extra on the side' off the books.
It's like filing a flight plan, and then taking an un-announced detour. It's like doing foot patrols in Iraq and, keeping the directive to get closer with the locals, chatting with them, getting chummy as one can get separated by 2,000 miles of ocean and 200 years of culture, exceed that directive (and regs) to take food and drink and stop one day when an encouraged stray dog (also against regs to encourage strays) refuse to eat some of the offering and luckily only one of the men get sick and you later find that the shopkeepers family is found with holes in the back of the head the next day <shrug>
I am for hand flying - big time. I am for pilots maintaining basic skills. That endeavor has to be I feel, within the structure of the full company SOP and with each experience subject to review (an environment best suited for the sim, sure)
Again, this is not an argument against safe vs unsafe, rather "Safe x10" vs "Safe x 9"
indeed!
What a fascinating observation. Perhaps we should go back in history when aircraft like the Canberra bomber was designed and flown as single pilot (navigator down the back) and these pilots flew above 40,000 ft in IMC single handed because there was no autopilot. Yes it's nice to have a copilot to pull the gear up and talk on the radio but just because one is "freelance" (whatever that is supposed to mean)
It's like filing a flight plan, and then taking an un-announced detour. It's like doing foot patrols in Iraq and, keeping the directive to get closer with the locals, chatting with them, getting chummy as one can get separated by 2,000 miles of ocean and 200 years of culture, exceed that directive (and regs) to take food and drink and stop one day when an encouraged stray dog (also against regs to encourage strays) refuse to eat some of the offering and luckily only one of the men get sick and you later find that the shopkeepers family is found with holes in the back of the head the next day <shrug>
I am for hand flying - big time. I am for pilots maintaining basic skills. That endeavor has to be I feel, within the structure of the full company SOP and with each experience subject to review (an environment best suited for the sim, sure)
Again, this is not an argument against safe vs unsafe, rather "Safe x10" vs "Safe x 9"
One surprised SLF
..surprised that regular hand flying (in appropriate circumstances) isn't actually mandated/insisted upon. Must be a good reason why pilots are called, erm , 'pilots'
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Our MEL allows for dispatch with zero autopilots working ergo the company are happy for us to fly without them ergo they expect us to be able to fly the aircraft without them.
I agree. So I hand-fly when it's appropriate, to keep current and because I enjoy it. As an aside, the more hand flying I've done, the more content I feel when I check out at the end of the day. I'm a PILOT after all. I want to be equally adept at using all the tools in the box - that's basic professional pride!
Use it or lose it - amen.
I agree. So I hand-fly when it's appropriate, to keep current and because I enjoy it. As an aside, the more hand flying I've done, the more content I feel when I check out at the end of the day. I'm a PILOT after all. I want to be equally adept at using all the tools in the box - that's basic professional pride!
Use it or lose it - amen.
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screwballburling
I donīt write down frequencys, speeds or headings. However I write down altitudes, runway, clearance limits, QNH etc.
By the way, I always felt it easier to disengage the autopilot when it doesnīt do what I expected it to do, and then reengage it when I got the aircraft and AP where I want it.
I donīt write down frequencys, speeds or headings. However I write down altitudes, runway, clearance limits, QNH etc.
By the way, I always felt it easier to disengage the autopilot when it doesnīt do what I expected it to do, and then reengage it when I got the aircraft and AP where I want it.
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Take it the dyed in the wool hand-jobbers on this thread would be against a pilot new on type using the automatics as much as possible for their first 6 months on-type. If it's their first large airline type, the chances are they'll have done plenty of hand flying thus far but not a lot of using the automatics to best effect - and it's important that they do consolidate in that area.
This whole thing is a matter of balance. The airline I work for says that all pilots should keep themselves in practice to operate the airplane at any level of automation ie, no automatics to full autoland. The rider on that is that you use a level of automation to suit the anticipated or actual workload - it being assumed that your workload will probably (but not necessarily) go down when using the automatics.
Personally, I like to hand fly. I like it when the skipper hand flys (practice those PM/PNF skills so they don't atrophy either). And if the automatics aren't doing what is required, disconnect everything and put it where you want it. It's not rocket science.
As to how the perceived loss of skill is managed in a long haul operation where there are so few sectors to go round is a tricky one. The accountants will almost certainly have the loudest voice and will win in the short term...... Better get the autopilot in then.
Spanner
This whole thing is a matter of balance. The airline I work for says that all pilots should keep themselves in practice to operate the airplane at any level of automation ie, no automatics to full autoland. The rider on that is that you use a level of automation to suit the anticipated or actual workload - it being assumed that your workload will probably (but not necessarily) go down when using the automatics.
Personally, I like to hand fly. I like it when the skipper hand flys (practice those PM/PNF skills so they don't atrophy either). And if the automatics aren't doing what is required, disconnect everything and put it where you want it. It's not rocket science.
As to how the perceived loss of skill is managed in a long haul operation where there are so few sectors to go round is a tricky one. The accountants will almost certainly have the loudest voice and will win in the short term...... Better get the autopilot in then.
Spanner
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Stabilized Approach
A company in Middle East apply to their SOP that pilot have to be stabilized by 1000 ft AGL in VMC & IMC, reason is for the safety, while we all knew that the issue of stabilized approach by Flight Safety Foundation was 500 ft AGL in VMC and 1000 ft in IMC this was also use by Boeing & Airbus FCTM, I do believe that the Flight Safety Foundation made this issue without reason ,maybe this is the optimum safety that they found after being study on this issue, so I would like to know that other airlines using standard stabilized approach at 500 ft AGL and 1000 ft AGL are less safe?? 
and stabilized at 1000 ft AGL is more professional consider traffic during final approach in VMC? 
if this really safe than Flight Safety Foundation has made a wrong issue
and stabilized at 1000 ft AGL is more professional consider traffic during final approach in VMC? if this really safe than Flight Safety Foundation has made a wrong issue
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FORCE - CAA Flight Operations Research Centre of Excellence
Back in 2007 Cranfield University began their FORCE investigation into Aircraft Automation and Manual Flying:
"Captain Simon Wood, FORCE Director, spoke on concerns that pilots may be placing too much reliance on automation and the work that was taking place to develop a new syllabus for pilots moving to new aircraft types. An experimental syllabus is under consideration for CAA approval and, if approved, will be trialled by a UK airline"
See: http://www.eaap.net/fileadmin/Eaap/d...e_Measures.pdf
"Captain Simon Wood, FORCE Director, spoke on concerns that pilots may be placing too much reliance on automation and the work that was taking place to develop a new syllabus for pilots moving to new aircraft types. An experimental syllabus is under consideration for CAA approval and, if approved, will be trialled by a UK airline"
See: http://www.eaap.net/fileadmin/Eaap/d...e_Measures.pdf