Pilot handling skills under threat, says Airbus
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Bullet
Training flight? Not flying a stabilsed approach? Third pilot not monitoring?
It's not called over reliance on the automatics its poor technique / scan / training. You do not have to hand fly everything to have a proper scan and actually monitor the aircraft and if it is not doing the correct thing you take over, you do not sit and say what is it doing now.
Alpagueur320
Yes Monitoring is a big word these days and you obviously do not understand it. I'm glad you are still learning, as we all are and should every day. Do you fly like this when on your annual route check?
Training flight? Not flying a stabilsed approach? Third pilot not monitoring?
It's not called over reliance on the automatics its poor technique / scan / training. You do not have to hand fly everything to have a proper scan and actually monitor the aircraft and if it is not doing the correct thing you take over, you do not sit and say what is it doing now.
Alpagueur320
Yes Monitoring is a big word these days and you obviously do not understand it. I'm glad you are still learning, as we all are and should every day. Do you fly like this when on your annual route check?
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Any ideas for a different job? With this useless skills?
14500 total, 7000 wide-body command
14500 total, 7000 wide-body command
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Jbayfan:
When we bought our first Pitts, we had the opportunity to learn with Scully and Lawry Kay (what happened to him? Has he retired yet?).
They were our mentors in the early 90's, for our project of forming AEROBATICA and we have learned a lot with them, (and later on with Nigel Lamb) before taking the "adventure" of flying aerobatics for a sponsor in our country. It happened many years ago, but I never lost that respectful notion that South Africans are great aviation lovers (and that is reflected in the way you are able to mix commercial, with military and private aviation in your country's air shows).
Fly Safe (but always Fly For Fun)
Victor
When we bought our first Pitts, we had the opportunity to learn with Scully and Lawry Kay (what happened to him? Has he retired yet?).
They were our mentors in the early 90's, for our project of forming AEROBATICA and we have learned a lot with them, (and later on with Nigel Lamb) before taking the "adventure" of flying aerobatics for a sponsor in our country. It happened many years ago, but I never lost that respectful notion that South Africans are great aviation lovers (and that is reflected in the way you are able to mix commercial, with military and private aviation in your country's air shows).
Fly Safe (but always Fly For Fun)
Victor
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Iceman.
How can you disparage someone (like alpaguer 320) for being good at something?
If it was the case that he was cack at using the autos and could only get by by hand-flying then I could understand your criticism (use of sarcastic terms like 'ACE' for example).
Lets face it, any twit can get by with max use of the automatics.
Whats wrong with someone who can hand fly to a good standard- and use the autos too?
How can you disparage someone (like alpaguer 320) for being good at something?
If it was the case that he was cack at using the autos and could only get by by hand-flying then I could understand your criticism (use of sarcastic terms like 'ACE' for example).
Lets face it, any twit can get by with max use of the automatics.
Whats wrong with someone who can hand fly to a good standard- and use the autos too?
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OPHERBEN and ALPAGUEUR320:
Someone pointed out that if airplanes are believed to be safer when flown with automation... Why disconnect the AP and be less safe?
This is a treacherous one, isn't it? I see the point, but...
How safer could a 320 or a 737 be with a fourth electric generator?
Are people at risk flying in them with "just" three?
How safe is safe enough? How many degrees of safety are there between safe and unsafe? Who decides at which degree the "safe enough region" begins?
In the safe/unsafe line an AP flown airliner lies to the left of the hand flown one, they say, but an airliner flown with rusty pilots lies well to the right of an airliner flown by skilled ones, I say.
Can nowadays airliners be safely handflown?
If the answer is NO, then do not grant them airworthiness certificates because they are not airworthy!
Indeed lawyers and psychologists have got too deep in our cockpits, dammit.
Someone pointed out that if airplanes are believed to be safer when flown with automation... Why disconnect the AP and be less safe?
This is a treacherous one, isn't it? I see the point, but...
How safer could a 320 or a 737 be with a fourth electric generator?
Are people at risk flying in them with "just" three?
How safe is safe enough? How many degrees of safety are there between safe and unsafe? Who decides at which degree the "safe enough region" begins?
In the safe/unsafe line an AP flown airliner lies to the left of the hand flown one, they say, but an airliner flown with rusty pilots lies well to the right of an airliner flown by skilled ones, I say.
Can nowadays airliners be safely handflown?
If the answer is NO, then do not grant them airworthiness certificates because they are not airworthy!
Indeed lawyers and psychologists have got too deep in our cockpits, dammit.
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Alpagueur320
I prefer captiains like you. I canīt remember when I flew an AP approach last time, Iīm even unsure if it was this year (I fly the 737 in Europe).
Iceman50
Itīs a myth that manual flying increases the workload so very much for the monitoring pilot. How long does it take to tune the VHF radio? Most of the time you have it preselected already otherwise you set it while you read it back to the controller, i.e. it takes a few short seconds and then you go back to monitoring the PF instead of monitoring the autopilot and you also scan outside the cockpit for other aircraft.
Ask yourselves, do you really scan that much more for other traffic when the PF is flying with AP engaged?
When the PF flyes manually, heīs really in the loop and knows what is happening with the aircraft because he has to monitor it to be able to fly it.
If the ceiling is low but the visibility is okay, fly the approach manually with the FD on, itīs a piece of cake!
I prefer captiains like you. I canīt remember when I flew an AP approach last time, Iīm even unsure if it was this year (I fly the 737 in Europe).
Iceman50
Itīs a myth that manual flying increases the workload so very much for the monitoring pilot. How long does it take to tune the VHF radio? Most of the time you have it preselected already otherwise you set it while you read it back to the controller, i.e. it takes a few short seconds and then you go back to monitoring the PF instead of monitoring the autopilot and you also scan outside the cockpit for other aircraft.
Ask yourselves, do you really scan that much more for other traffic when the PF is flying with AP engaged?
When the PF flyes manually, heīs really in the loop and knows what is happening with the aircraft because he has to monitor it to be able to fly it.
If the ceiling is low but the visibility is okay, fly the approach manually with the FD on, itīs a piece of cake!
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The pilot told investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) that his control panel froze up. When he switched to a second control station, he didn't notice that it was set to shut off the plane's fuel. The switch cut off the Predator's engine.
It seems Human factors are also present in this case.
Wouldn't SLF prefer to have the pilots flying with them, on commercial aircraft?
When we pilots, buckle our safety belts, we join our lives and ultimately our destiny to the ones of our passengers. Our mistakes are paid with the ultimate price. A "pilot" seated in a room, "managing" a commercial aircraft would never be involved as we are in the cockpit of our aircraft.
I don't think passengers will accept unmanned cockpits in the near future. Its a too complex environment to be left to computers, and "ground pilots", cause computers also fail. Computers don't gain experience, don't have common sense, and are unable to improvise or overcome their-selves (Sully comes to mind) to resolve uncommon situations.
So lets fight for our profession. Lets fight for the honorability of our jobs. Lets impose the "pilots point of view", to the manufacturers, to the management and to the intransigent.
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Ladusvala
This argument could go on forever. It is not a myth and if you think the PM just flicks a radio switch and looks outside for other A/C the mind boggles. Configuration changes, aids tuned, FCU settings if the FD's are used the list goes on.
Just wonder how the lawyers would look at any incident and say "can you explain to me Captain why you were flying raw data without the AP in a perfectly servicable A/C?" They would just love the reply of "well I was just practising"and I am sure the regulators would look at that when they reviewed the Captains licence.
BarbiesBoyfriend
Re-read his first post!
This argument could go on forever. It is not a myth and if you think the PM just flicks a radio switch and looks outside for other A/C the mind boggles. Configuration changes, aids tuned, FCU settings if the FD's are used the list goes on.
Just wonder how the lawyers would look at any incident and say "can you explain to me Captain why you were flying raw data without the AP in a perfectly servicable A/C?" They would just love the reply of "well I was just practising"and I am sure the regulators would look at that when they reviewed the Captains licence.
BarbiesBoyfriend
Re-read his first post!
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There are old pilots and bold pilots there are NO old and bold pilots! Take care as I think your ego has a hard time fitting in the cockpit.
Hand flying an aircraft is considered by some as reckless behavior?
Burt Rutan's latest, White Knight II, doesn't have an autopilot at all!! Clearly, that aircraft would be way too dangerous for some here to fly or fly in.
What the hell are you people thinking? Can someone direct me to where the PILOTS hang out?
Last edited by ...still single; 18th Sep 2009 at 02:17. Reason: Spelling
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Pilot handling skills under threat,says Airbus
The world is full of pilots like Iceman(inappropiate pseudonym if ever there was) and not enough of Alpagueur's ilk.Yes,use the automation but never hide behind it/rely on it.
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Rananim
No one is hiding behind automation nor suggesting that, you really should read all the posts thoroughly.
...still single
No one is suggesting hand flying is dangerous or should not be done. Could'nt do anything but for twenty years - no FD nor AP in my military jet! I suppose "pilots" are real men where you come from.
No one is hiding behind automation nor suggesting that, you really should read all the posts thoroughly.
...still single
No one is suggesting hand flying is dangerous or should not be done. Could'nt do anything but for twenty years - no FD nor AP in my military jet! I suppose "pilots" are real men where you come from.
Psychophysiological entity
Just wonder how the lawyers would look at any incident and say "can you explain to me Captain why you were flying raw data without the AP in a perfectly servicable A/C?" They would just love the reply of "well I was just practising"and I am sure the regulators would look at that when they reviewed the Captains licence.
And any captain worth his salt, would be able to explain to him - in no uncertain terms - why it was absolutely necessary to regularly fly the aircraft with minimal computerization.
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And any captain worth his salt, would be able to explain to him - in no uncertain terms - why it was absolutely necessary to regularly fly the aircraft with minimal computerization.
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Yes.
Which brings again the question.
What is safe and what is unsafe? And Who decides that?
Safety is rarely an absolute magnitude. My opinion is
- Both automated flight and manual flight are safe enough provided the pilots know both techniques and practice both kinds of flight regularly.
- Automated flight is better understood and is safer if used by a crew skilled in hand flying
And:
- over reliance on automation decreases safety
- losing hand flying skills leads necesarily to automation over reliance
But of course:
- if conditions are such that you have a high workload and you need more percentage of your brain to maintain your situational awareness and to make decisions, donīt be a fool, use the AP!
There are situations when AP is highly advisable. In the rest, hand fly regularly to keep in shape and be safer should an automation malfunction occur the day you are tired and sleepy, in IMC and busy airspace.
That is safer.
If you are a long haul pilot, don't miss an oportunity to hand fly.
If you are a short haul pilot try to hand fly a few times every month, at least. But if you do a lot of hand flying... Don't let that make you forget automation!
Let's not fall in the lawyers trap! Safety is really important for us, isn't it?
Which brings again the question.
What is safe and what is unsafe? And Who decides that?
Safety is rarely an absolute magnitude. My opinion is
- Both automated flight and manual flight are safe enough provided the pilots know both techniques and practice both kinds of flight regularly.
- Automated flight is better understood and is safer if used by a crew skilled in hand flying
And:
- over reliance on automation decreases safety
- losing hand flying skills leads necesarily to automation over reliance
But of course:
- if conditions are such that you have a high workload and you need more percentage of your brain to maintain your situational awareness and to make decisions, donīt be a fool, use the AP!
There are situations when AP is highly advisable. In the rest, hand fly regularly to keep in shape and be safer should an automation malfunction occur the day you are tired and sleepy, in IMC and busy airspace.
That is safer.
If you are a long haul pilot, don't miss an oportunity to hand fly.
If you are a short haul pilot try to hand fly a few times every month, at least. But if you do a lot of hand flying... Don't let that make you forget automation!
Let's not fall in the lawyers trap! Safety is really important for us, isn't it?
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Iceman50
You can fly with the AP engaged till you get vectors for approach. Then everyting is set up for the approach and PM has to select flaps and gear down, something he does when the AP is engaged also. In addition to that he will have to switch radio frequency, set the heading and maybe push a button or two. My god, that really is a lot of time consuming work isnīt it? My answer is -No, it isnīt, manual flying i perfectly safe, most of the time. With your background, you should know.
I donīt care what the lawyers might think. My only concern is the safety of my passengers. As long as I do the right thing, manually or on AP, I donīt have to deal with the lawyers.
You can fly with the AP engaged till you get vectors for approach. Then everyting is set up for the approach and PM has to select flaps and gear down, something he does when the AP is engaged also. In addition to that he will have to switch radio frequency, set the heading and maybe push a button or two. My god, that really is a lot of time consuming work isnīt it? My answer is -No, it isnīt, manual flying i perfectly safe, most of the time. With your background, you should know.
I donīt care what the lawyers might think. My only concern is the safety of my passengers. As long as I do the right thing, manually or on AP, I donīt have to deal with the lawyers.
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No one is suggesting hand flying is dangerous or should not be done.
my mistake, but when you said....
I wonder what your FO's think of all your hand flying as they try to monitor you, do the radio and tune your aids, or do you do that as well being such an "ACE"!
If you want to do all that "hero" stuff do it in on your own and without the paying public behind you.
If you want to do all that "hero" stuff do it in on your own and without the paying public behind you.