Pilot caught smelling of alcohol at LHR
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March of 2007 (after our pilot got acquitted for the Manchester incident) I wrote:
"...curious though, will the coppers now "follow" any future "suspects" to their aircraft? ....or, will they continue to grab them at the security checkpoint?"
I think we now know the answer.
KC135777
"...curious though, will the coppers now "follow" any future "suspects" to their aircraft? ....or, will they continue to grab them at the security checkpoint?"
I think we now know the answer.
KC135777
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Update blood test are in and I'am told the AC pilot is back on the line cleared of all charges. So there seems to be a problem with security .I wonder who advised the media .I also notice zero media coverage. To bad his name was dragged through the mud
SkyGod
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I really do have to grin at all this...the AA clown was tested over the limit...full stop.
Therefore he will face charges.
As it should be...period.
Therefore he will face charges.
As it should be...period.
Update blood test are in and I'am told the AC pilot is back on the line cleared of all charges.
If so, one is 100% wrong...
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If the blood test proved negative that is one point, but 411a's point is if you have a drink before you fly tough luck if you get caught and I agree. If you want to push the limits by drinking to the limit at the limit of time before duty then you are being stupid. If you get caught, again tough luck. If you have a drinking problem or feel you may have get help before you get caught...there are so many support groups now.
However, there are some malicious monkeys at security so sad so you must be on your guard
However, there are some malicious monkeys at security so sad so you must be on your guard
Thread Starter
I think there is a bit of a mix up here. the AA pilot who was the subject of the original post pleaded guilty at uxbridge magistrates court in july and was fined Ł1500 with Ł300 costs in august.
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The easy way to fix this is to lower the limit to zero. Pilots should not have any alcohol on board at all when flying. There is no demonstrably safe level of alcohol in the blood, and I must question the ethics of any pilot who thinks it is okay to fly under the influence of the drug.
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you must realize that your body produces alcohols all the time right?
Fine post, dont ruin it with unsubstantiated pseudo scientific poppycock! lol
Plus, it doesnt 'fix' anything
There is no demonstrably safe level of alcohol in the blood
Fine post, dont ruin it with unsubstantiated pseudo scientific poppycock! lol
Plus, it doesnt 'fix' anything
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A bit of a strong line there..
I think you'll find the current limit is effectively a zero level.
It takes into account that your body can manufacture a certain level of alcohol on its own.
Some innocous products help with this and that is already in case law.
I think you'll find the current limit is effectively a zero level.
It takes into account that your body can manufacture a certain level of alcohol on its own.
Some innocous products help with this and that is already in case law.
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Endogenous ethanol levels in the blood from fermentation in the gut do not normally exceed 0.04 mg/dl in healthy individuals. The FAA limit for ethanol in the blood is 40.00 mg/dl, which is 1000 times above the usual level of endogenous ethanol. Thus, the claim that this limit is necessary to account for endogenous ethanol, or that endogenous ethanol makes any significant contribution to intoxication in comparison to exogenous ethanol, is baseless.
The aviation limits for ethanol intoxication are extremely generous in this context. They are that way only because ethanol is a legal drug, and because it is so deeply ingrained in socially acceptable practices of Western society that hardly anyone seems able to do without it. This high limit, however, does not mean that the impairment caused by alcohol is any less severe quantitatively than that produced by many other illegal or less socially acceptable drugs, such as cocaine or nicotine. Additionally, the impairment due to alcohol is qualitatively different from that produced by many other substances. Caffeine, for example, is primarily a stimulant that enhances alertness, and does not necessarily impair a pilot in a way that makes him less safe (although this should not be construed to mean that taking caffeine is okay or a good idea); but alcohol impairs pilots in a number of ways that are quite different, and all of them are unsafe.
Because so many people consume this drug, it is common to hear diverse rationalizations of its use, and excuses for allowing it to be present in the bodies of persons engaged in safety-of-life tasks such as operating vehicles and piloting airplanes. Unfortunately this is a dangerous practice. Just because alcohol is legal up a certain limit does not make that limit (or any presence of alcohol) safe.
If a pilot cannot bring himself to abandon the use of this drug, at the very least he should take care to ensure that his blood levels of ethanol are zero within the limits of measurement while he is flying. Not 0.01, or 0.04, or 0.08, and not just 8 or 12 hours "from bottle to throttle," but truly zero. A pilot who flies intoxicated simply because he is "legal" has a poor sense of priorities: not only is his judgment significantly impaired as he flies, but his judgment in a broader sense is extremely questionable.
Indeed, if a pilot considers alcohol so important that he is willing to take these risks and cannot countenance total abstinence before flight and zero tolerance for alcohol during flying, he may have a much more serious problem with alcohol than he realizes, which itself is a good reason to disqualify him from flying.
There are many pilots who take their flying seriously and truly do make sure that their blood alcohol is zero when flying (indeed, many of these pilots simply do not drink at all, just to be on the safe side). They would sooner shoot themselves in the head than risk having booze on board in any measurable concentration in the cockpit. Their personal standards are higher than those of any law, and uncompromising. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about the pilots who seem to think that arresting a pilot for being intoxicated is a bad thing, and who have a long list of excuses and rationalizations for being under the influence of alcohol on the flight deck. Some of the pilots in this latter category will become the subjects of accident investigations. Unfortunately, they may take a lot of other people with them when they go, and they are a disgrace to the profession.
The aviation limits for ethanol intoxication are extremely generous in this context. They are that way only because ethanol is a legal drug, and because it is so deeply ingrained in socially acceptable practices of Western society that hardly anyone seems able to do without it. This high limit, however, does not mean that the impairment caused by alcohol is any less severe quantitatively than that produced by many other illegal or less socially acceptable drugs, such as cocaine or nicotine. Additionally, the impairment due to alcohol is qualitatively different from that produced by many other substances. Caffeine, for example, is primarily a stimulant that enhances alertness, and does not necessarily impair a pilot in a way that makes him less safe (although this should not be construed to mean that taking caffeine is okay or a good idea); but alcohol impairs pilots in a number of ways that are quite different, and all of them are unsafe.
Because so many people consume this drug, it is common to hear diverse rationalizations of its use, and excuses for allowing it to be present in the bodies of persons engaged in safety-of-life tasks such as operating vehicles and piloting airplanes. Unfortunately this is a dangerous practice. Just because alcohol is legal up a certain limit does not make that limit (or any presence of alcohol) safe.
If a pilot cannot bring himself to abandon the use of this drug, at the very least he should take care to ensure that his blood levels of ethanol are zero within the limits of measurement while he is flying. Not 0.01, or 0.04, or 0.08, and not just 8 or 12 hours "from bottle to throttle," but truly zero. A pilot who flies intoxicated simply because he is "legal" has a poor sense of priorities: not only is his judgment significantly impaired as he flies, but his judgment in a broader sense is extremely questionable.
Indeed, if a pilot considers alcohol so important that he is willing to take these risks and cannot countenance total abstinence before flight and zero tolerance for alcohol during flying, he may have a much more serious problem with alcohol than he realizes, which itself is a good reason to disqualify him from flying.
There are many pilots who take their flying seriously and truly do make sure that their blood alcohol is zero when flying (indeed, many of these pilots simply do not drink at all, just to be on the safe side). They would sooner shoot themselves in the head than risk having booze on board in any measurable concentration in the cockpit. Their personal standards are higher than those of any law, and uncompromising. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about the pilots who seem to think that arresting a pilot for being intoxicated is a bad thing, and who have a long list of excuses and rationalizations for being under the influence of alcohol on the flight deck. Some of the pilots in this latter category will become the subjects of accident investigations. Unfortunately, they may take a lot of other people with them when they go, and they are a disgrace to the profession.
Anthony,
This has all been said and argued before. Whilst not in disagreement with your argument there are far more pilots flying when fatigued causing greater risk than those flying drug impaired.
Lets be realistic and cover the spectrum not just your hobby horse
This has all been said and argued before. Whilst not in disagreement with your argument there are far more pilots flying when fatigued causing greater risk than those flying drug impaired.
Lets be realistic and cover the spectrum not just your hobby horse
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They would sooner shoot themselves in the head than risk having booze on board in any measurable concentration in the cockpit. Their personal standards are higher than those of any law, and uncompromising.
I very rarely drink alcohol: my choice, not from some higher morale ground standpoint or religious fervour or a righteous feeling of having higher standards than my colleagues. A simple personal preference.
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garlic on my breath.
May I be sarcastic and recommend before every flight that all Pilots get locked into a room and not released until they are fully examined by a team of sober professionals for the following;
Alcohol on the pilots breath ???.......The sky is falling, the sky is falling.......Pleeeeaazzze give me a break.
DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT ENDORSE DRIVING at any time WHEN UNDER THE INFLUENCE.
p.s. John Mc. Great post.
- Zero limit in alcohol, afterall this substance lowers reaction times.
- A full drug test for every harmful illegal/legal substance that is known to affect ones performance. Mind altering substances (Psychoactive drugs), prescription drugs, stimulants and certain food substances. This list not being limited to opiates, crack, LSD, heroin, cocaine, dope, antihistamines, codines nicotine, MSG, aspartame, perfume etc.
- A doctor should conduct a full physical examination to ensure before departure that the pilots are in peak physical fitness. I suggest an ECG at minimum – we cannot have pilots dying from heart attacks on the sector.
- The tests should also evaluate reaction times, fatigue, tiredness, stress.
- A pre-flight simulator evaluation to verify that the pilots skills havent atrophied during the layover and the motorskills are still functioning.
- I suggest a tiny examination to ensure the pilots meet the required knowledge on the route they are conducting. I remember a flight landing on the wrong runway a while back. This would minimize the chances of the pilots getting lost.
- An engineer spokesperson could also ask a few questions to ensure the pilots know about the complex machine they are flying. This will help refresh the pilots memory on system knowledge of the aircraft - in case of equipment breakdown.
- A physcologist to establish the continuing sanity of the crew.
- A lawyer to confirm the pilots existing financial state and verify that no large insurance policies have been taken.
- A social worker to confirm the “home stress factor”. We cannot have pilots flying after the passing of a spouse, family member, a divorce, stolen vehicle, house burnt down, an argument etc.
- A religious advisor to verify that the pilots current religion will ensure a safe landing at destination.
- A dietician/lab technician to test the stomach contents for potential pathogens and contaminated food which could cause cramps and sudden incapacitation on a flight.
Alcohol on the pilots breath ???.......The sky is falling, the sky is falling.......Pleeeeaazzze give me a break.
DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT ENDORSE DRIVING at any time WHEN UNDER THE INFLUENCE.
p.s. John Mc. Great post.
A shot for courage! Does this still exist?
I've seen old videos of Soviet Pilots have a preflight sip. There are advantages and disadvantages to this, depending on the individual.
I've seen old videos of Soviet Pilots have a preflight sip. There are advantages and disadvantages to this, depending on the individual.
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you skin, more than your bowels, is the dumping ground for all you've consumed in the last 48 hours and harder to flush than your colon. The next organ is your lungs, absorbing VOC's (volatile organic compounds) in the oxygenation exchange in your lungs, and expelling them into each exhale:
That is why you could swill mouthwash for hours...to no avail!
Fatigue IS the silent killer though* and while we may have a great social experience with alcohol and it's effects, I am not sure we have enough knowledge (properly shared) about the relationship on rest deprivation with judgment, perception and responsiveness, especially when the stresses of high altitude are factored in.
In reality, you are never OFF duty, and since recovery time takes several hours.
I had an extensive chat once with someone... I tossed out the idea for a pre-flight cognizance check software I was thinking of developing. Basically a laptop that basically tested the pilot with some scenarios and questions and math prior to taking the plane, a five minute electronic version of the "Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus Test" this test would be easy to perform when alert and well rested, but very hard if not. Borderline cases would have to be approved before the pilot could continue. The feedback I got was that airlines would rather not know!
*caveat: because we can smell drunk but we cant smell tired
That is why you could swill mouthwash for hours...to no avail!
Fatigue IS the silent killer though* and while we may have a great social experience with alcohol and it's effects, I am not sure we have enough knowledge (properly shared) about the relationship on rest deprivation with judgment, perception and responsiveness, especially when the stresses of high altitude are factored in.
In reality, you are never OFF duty, and since recovery time takes several hours.
I had an extensive chat once with someone... I tossed out the idea for a pre-flight cognizance check software I was thinking of developing. Basically a laptop that basically tested the pilot with some scenarios and questions and math prior to taking the plane, a five minute electronic version of the "Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus Test" this test would be easy to perform when alert and well rested, but very hard if not. Borderline cases would have to be approved before the pilot could continue. The feedback I got was that airlines would rather not know!
*caveat: because we can smell drunk but we cant smell tired
May I be sarcastic and recommend before every flight that all Pilots get locked into a room and not released until they are fully examined by a team of sober professionals for the following;
* Zero limit in alcohol, afterall this substance lowers reaction times.
* A full drug test for every harmful illegal/legal substance that is known to affect ones performance. Mind altering substances (Psychoactive drugs), prescription drugs, stimulants and certain food substances. This list not being limited to opiates, crack, LSD, heroin, cocaine, dope, antihistamines, codines nicotine, MSG, aspartame, perfume etc.
* A doctor should conduct a full physical examination to ensure before departure that the pilots are in peak physical fitness. I suggest an ECG at minimum – we cannot have pilots dying from heart attacks on the sector.
* The tests should also evaluate reaction times, fatigue, tiredness, stress.
* A pre-flight simulator evaluation to verify that the pilots skills havent atrophied during the layover and the motorskills are still functioning.
* I suggest a tiny examination to ensure the pilots meet the required knowledge on the route they are conducting. I remember a flight landing on the wrong runway a while back. This would minimize the chances of the pilots getting lost.
* An engineer spokesperson could also ask a few questions to ensure the pilots know about the complex machine they are flying. This will help refresh the pilots memory on system knowledge of the aircraft - in case of equipment breakdown.
* A physcologist to establish the continuing sanity of the crew.
* A lawyer to confirm the pilots existing financial state and verify that no large insurance policies have been taken.
* A social worker to confirm the “home stress factor”. We cannot have pilots flying after the passing of a spouse, family member, a divorce, stolen vehicle, house burnt down, an argument etc.
* A religious advisor to verify that the pilots current religion will ensure a safe landing at destination.
* A dietician/lab technician to test the stomach contents for potential pathogens and contaminated food which could cause cramps and sudden incapacitation on a flight.
Now back to the thread. As a well informed individual, I do know that “Airline Transport” is relatively safe and that there have been ZERO accidents in this industry due to alcohol being the PRIMARY cause.
* Zero limit in alcohol, afterall this substance lowers reaction times.
* A full drug test for every harmful illegal/legal substance that is known to affect ones performance. Mind altering substances (Psychoactive drugs), prescription drugs, stimulants and certain food substances. This list not being limited to opiates, crack, LSD, heroin, cocaine, dope, antihistamines, codines nicotine, MSG, aspartame, perfume etc.
* A doctor should conduct a full physical examination to ensure before departure that the pilots are in peak physical fitness. I suggest an ECG at minimum – we cannot have pilots dying from heart attacks on the sector.
* The tests should also evaluate reaction times, fatigue, tiredness, stress.
* A pre-flight simulator evaluation to verify that the pilots skills havent atrophied during the layover and the motorskills are still functioning.
* I suggest a tiny examination to ensure the pilots meet the required knowledge on the route they are conducting. I remember a flight landing on the wrong runway a while back. This would minimize the chances of the pilots getting lost.
* An engineer spokesperson could also ask a few questions to ensure the pilots know about the complex machine they are flying. This will help refresh the pilots memory on system knowledge of the aircraft - in case of equipment breakdown.
* A physcologist to establish the continuing sanity of the crew.
* A lawyer to confirm the pilots existing financial state and verify that no large insurance policies have been taken.
* A social worker to confirm the “home stress factor”. We cannot have pilots flying after the passing of a spouse, family member, a divorce, stolen vehicle, house burnt down, an argument etc.
* A religious advisor to verify that the pilots current religion will ensure a safe landing at destination.
* A dietician/lab technician to test the stomach contents for potential pathogens and contaminated food which could cause cramps and sudden incapacitation on a flight.
Now back to the thread. As a well informed individual, I do know that “Airline Transport” is relatively safe and that there have been ZERO accidents in this industry due to alcohol being the PRIMARY cause.
1. All train drivers.
2. All bus drivers.
3. All policemen carrying weapons.
4. All heavy equipment operators.
5. All air traffic controllers.
6. All security personnel.
7. All Magistrates and Judges and lawyers on duty.
8. All surgeons and assistant medical staff.
9. All doctors prescribing drugs.
10. All car drivers.
11. All pre-school teachers.
And everyone else that might potentially cause harm to any other member of the public by their authority, decision, presence or operation of any device in their control.
If there is no perceivable problem, you can bet that some politician or bureaucrat will invent a regulation to deflect attention away from the failures that are happening on his watch.
And we the stupid public will be drawn into his net and overlook the flaming obvious.
Buttonpusher
Don't forget the flight attendants that are there to evacuate the aircraft in an emergency, any slip up there too will cost lives. Meanwhile there are posters on this board that expect perfection and zero tolerance from us , at the same expecting rock bottom prices from A to B, while management line their pockets with bonuses and decimate our pensions and working conditions all at the same time.
Time for a drink....on my days off....
Time for a drink....on my days off....
