Pilot caught smelling of alcohol at LHR
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Sorry to upset a few on here but if I fly my aircraft after drinking then it is the same as driving a car having a few in the pub.My risk!
When I pay for a bus,train or plane ticket then I pay for someone up front that can do the job and is not under the influence of drink or drugs.
Commercial pilots are like truck drivers..they are paid to do the job. They are also paid well just like politicians and exposed to the same risks of publicity and loss of employment if they mess up and the press find out. Commercial flying is no longer a gentlemens club as it was in the old days of BEA,BOAC and PAN-AMERICAN
When I fly my aircraft it's my machine and my risk and I am paying.
The moment I buy a ticket you are paid to fly me safely from A to B.
When I pay for a bus,train or plane ticket then I pay for someone up front that can do the job and is not under the influence of drink or drugs.
Commercial pilots are like truck drivers..they are paid to do the job. They are also paid well just like politicians and exposed to the same risks of publicity and loss of employment if they mess up and the press find out. Commercial flying is no longer a gentlemens club as it was in the old days of BEA,BOAC and PAN-AMERICAN
When I fly my aircraft it's my machine and my risk and I am paying.
The moment I buy a ticket you are paid to fly me safely from A to B.
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If you can drive or fly in a place where there's no property or people that you might damage in a state of intoxication, then doing these things while drinking is indeed your own business. If you risk damaging the property of others or injuring people while intoxicated, however, then your state becomes a concern for everyone. Laws against operating vehicles while intoxicated are predicated upon this reality.
I'm afraid I find it difficult to trust pilots who engage in substance abuse, including the consumption of ethanol, no matter how much time elapses between their abuse and their flying activity. And that is all the more true when they attempt to rationalize their abuse and criticize anyone who suggests that such abuse might not be a good idea for pilots. This includes those who think it's okay to drink as long as you remain below some arbitrary legal limit.
I think JohnMcGhie's post said it best. More than a few people here seem to be in denial.
I'm afraid I find it difficult to trust pilots who engage in substance abuse, including the consumption of ethanol, no matter how much time elapses between their abuse and their flying activity. And that is all the more true when they attempt to rationalize their abuse and criticize anyone who suggests that such abuse might not be a good idea for pilots. This includes those who think it's okay to drink as long as you remain below some arbitrary legal limit.
I think JohnMcGhie's post said it best. More than a few people here seem to be in denial.
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What have the last three(3) posters been taking?
Sitigeltfel: "Better (security) than the coroner"
What coroner
To which incident are you referring?
I will make it easy for you. There has never been an alcohol related fatality in passenger transport.
AnthonyGA(GA): "Substance abuse"
Drinking the damn stuff is abusing it, now! What do you do with it?
Can no one else see WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE? (yes I was shouting that bit).
Oops, but there have been a few stupidity related accidents.
Think on, you two.
Sitigeltfel: "Better (security) than the coroner"
What coroner
To which incident are you referring?
I will make it easy for you. There has never been an alcohol related fatality in passenger transport.
AnthonyGA(GA): "Substance abuse"
Drinking the damn stuff is abusing it, now! What do you do with it?
Can no one else see WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE? (yes I was shouting that bit).
Oops, but there have been a few stupidity related accidents.
Think on, you two.
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YHZChick
I guess you knew the answer to that question was gonna be No.
Yep, the only sensible thing to do but there's never any shortage of idiots happy to do the opposite.
Caudillo
True. That's been explained over and over in every alcohol thread we've had but however many times it's explained there'll always be folk who haven't got the brains to understand it. 
One Outsider
There certainly are.
sitigetfelt
From smelling of alcohol to coroner in one move. 
Have you thought of writing for the movies?
AnthonyGA
Since "some arbitrary legal limit" is either zero or almost zero depending on the law of the state are you saying all pilots should be tee-total?
Would you care to explain why you think it's not okay for pilots to drink alcohol when they are off duty provided they are below the legal limit when they go to work.
Intoxicated?
I thought of trying to explain that being over the aviation alcohol limit doesn't mean someone's intoxicated but decided it would be a waste of time.
B.
Are we going to wait for the facts to be in before we go splashing his name around and dragging his reputation through the mud this time?
But until there is concrete evidence, I'm witholding judgment and assuming the pilot's innocence.
Caudillo
Being over the limit does not necessarily imply drunkenness.
One Outsider
There are far too many people far too willing and quick to judge.
sitigetfelt
Better them than the coroner.
Have you thought of writing for the movies?
AnthonyGA
This includes those who think it's okay to drink as long as you remain below some arbitrary legal limit.
Would you care to explain why you think it's not okay for pilots to drink alcohol when they are off duty provided they are below the legal limit when they go to work.
Intoxicated?
I thought of trying to explain that being over the aviation alcohol limit doesn't mean someone's intoxicated but decided it would be a waste of time.
B.
Last edited by Bronx; 21st May 2009 at 15:38.
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The alcohol issue goes way beyond aviation.
Europeans find it hard to understand the draconian US law on open or closed alcohol containers in cars.You can fight for your country in the USA but not drink until you are 21.
European visitors to the USA are also more or less treated as criminals by the
Stasi in New York and Miami the moment they step of the aircraft.
It looks increasingly like you are on duty from the moment you leave home until you return.Hence the old fashioned room parties are a thing of the past.Just look at the pictures that emerged in the UK tabloid press of the Heathrow BA who pulled off the Boeing landing.
Ask yourself if you have ever been in a situation of duty where a press picture would have wrecked your career.
I rest my case.
Europeans find it hard to understand the draconian US law on open or closed alcohol containers in cars.You can fight for your country in the USA but not drink until you are 21.
European visitors to the USA are also more or less treated as criminals by the
Stasi in New York and Miami the moment they step of the aircraft.
It looks increasingly like you are on duty from the moment you leave home until you return.Hence the old fashioned room parties are a thing of the past.Just look at the pictures that emerged in the UK tabloid press of the Heathrow BA who pulled off the Boeing landing.
Ask yourself if you have ever been in a situation of duty where a press picture would have wrecked your career.
I rest my case.
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Well said Phil ...
Surely we're all in the business of 'minimising risk' - increased alcohol (to my knowledge) never reduces risk. We ought to ask the question: "would my flight be safer if I didn't drink <T-24hr?"
Whilst flying will never be totally safe, if we can easily & practically do one more thing to improve the odds, what is the argument not to? (and 'I like drinking' is not an acceptable answer)
Surely we're all in the business of 'minimising risk' - increased alcohol (to my knowledge) never reduces risk. We ought to ask the question: "would my flight be safer if I didn't drink <T-24hr?"
Whilst flying will never be totally safe, if we can easily & practically do one more thing to improve the odds, what is the argument not to? (and 'I like drinking' is not an acceptable answer)
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'Phil Space' wrote;
"It looks increasingly like you are on duty from the moment you leave home until you return.Hence the old fashioned room parties are a thing of the past.Just look at the pictures that emerged in the UK tabloid press of the Heathrow BA who pulled off the Boeing landing."
Yes Phil, those party days are well and truly over; causal factors being, lack of days off anymore downroute, plus getting older!!
I was breathalysed straight after that landing by the LHR police (no objection from me as I was happy to be proved innocent of any blame) plus another urine test by the authorities after my AAIB interview some hours later... both negative.
People arrive at work in all sorts of state of mind; it is often up to the front line staff to recognise whether our colleagues are fit to fly. Our state of mind can be affected by all manner of personal problems and are quite often manifested by drinking too much. Our jobs include looking after others; and I hope that the other members of this crew from LHR are not cursing themselves for not warning this pilot. They might be blaming themselves now for not telling him to go sick at the hotel? He might have been showing signs of crying out for help over the previous sector/night stop or even months before. We all have the capacity to help guys help themselves and not end up in this situation.
Liquorice anyone?
"It looks increasingly like you are on duty from the moment you leave home until you return.Hence the old fashioned room parties are a thing of the past.Just look at the pictures that emerged in the UK tabloid press of the Heathrow BA who pulled off the Boeing landing."
Yes Phil, those party days are well and truly over; causal factors being, lack of days off anymore downroute, plus getting older!!
I was breathalysed straight after that landing by the LHR police (no objection from me as I was happy to be proved innocent of any blame) plus another urine test by the authorities after my AAIB interview some hours later... both negative.
People arrive at work in all sorts of state of mind; it is often up to the front line staff to recognise whether our colleagues are fit to fly. Our state of mind can be affected by all manner of personal problems and are quite often manifested by drinking too much. Our jobs include looking after others; and I hope that the other members of this crew from LHR are not cursing themselves for not warning this pilot. They might be blaming themselves now for not telling him to go sick at the hotel? He might have been showing signs of crying out for help over the previous sector/night stop or even months before. We all have the capacity to help guys help themselves and not end up in this situation.
Liquorice anyone?
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Did I actually read a post maintaining that "over limit is not necessarily drunk"?
It remains breathtaking that there are people defending mixing alcohol with aviation at all. Over limit is overlimit. The legal limit is established to prevent even the appearance of impaired flight. There will always be whiners and babies trying to justify their "rebellion", but taken in context, it remains immature and unproffessional.
Will
It remains breathtaking that there are people defending mixing alcohol with aviation at all. Over limit is overlimit. The legal limit is established to prevent even the appearance of impaired flight. There will always be whiners and babies trying to justify their "rebellion", but taken in context, it remains immature and unproffessional.
Will
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"over limit is not necessarily drunk" is a statement of fact. It is a neutral statement.
It is bizarre how some need to twist, embellish or exaggerate in order to make whatever point they are trying to make.
It is bizarre how some need to twist, embellish or exaggerate in order to make whatever point they are trying to make.
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I am not having a go at anyone but in an increasingly big brother society where we are surrounded by cameras and 'citizen journalists' we are all just a couple of clicks from the front page.
The sort of initiations I experienced years ago would be tabloid fodder today
The sort of initiations I experienced years ago would be tabloid fodder today
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One Outsider
Sorry you are late to this discussion. The phrase infers a defense of drinking. If you refuse to admit that, you may not be able to add to the debate. Why would one write that statement? If you are trying to disagree with my conclusion, say so. Your position that I am "twisting" the discussion is blatantly dishonest.
Will
Will
If this is true, then might it be because someone, possibly security or another crew member has stopped an intoxicated pilot from flying?
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The phrase infers nothing. You, however, do.
It is not my position that you are twisting the discussion, that appears to be an exaggeration of yours.
It is my opinion that you twist Caudillo's words to suit your argument.
It is not my position that you are twisting the discussion, that appears to be an exaggeration of yours.
It is my opinion that you twist Caudillo's words to suit your argument.
Person Of Interest
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16024...better ck the NTSB reports for FAR 135 in the USA...several cases of fatal accidents due to pilot error...Contributing factor-"Pilot Impairment" due to drugs/and or alchol...
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Down-in-3-green.
I was quoting an FAA document so argue with them.
We are talking here about Airline Pilots. I suppose you would call it Part 121.
I don't know about part 135.
What you bush pilots put up your nose is your business...
I was quoting an FAA document so argue with them.
We are talking here about Airline Pilots. I suppose you would call it Part 121.
I don't know about part 135.
What you bush pilots put up your nose is your business...
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16024
You say:
So let me ask you this: do you honestly believe that if this pilot had not been stopped by the police and had commanded that flight, his 'state' would not have increased the possibility an accident? Or do you think that being under the influence of alcohol makes no difference to the job?
You say:
There has never been an alcohol related fatality in passenger transport
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The phrase infers nothing. You, however, do.
quote
The modifier drunk in legal language describes a person whose blood contains more than the legally allowed percentage of alcohol
unquote
FSLF