ryr Landed In a taxyway by mistake in CAG
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Italians are very good with... ... food...
Well, what to say... Ok... How can you miss the high intensity lights from a runway?
But all the rest that has being said regarding Italian airports, is absolutely true! Cagliari might be bad... But has anyone landed at Naples???
Their "maccheroni" english is hilarious more than helpful, and ATC is rubbish... I personally would avoid flying over Italian airspace as much as I could...
So, to make it short... Knowing Italians, there's a HUGE possibility that someone on TWR has guided that poor plane onto the taxiway!!!
But all the rest that has being said regarding Italian airports, is absolutely true! Cagliari might be bad... But has anyone landed at Naples???
Their "maccheroni" english is hilarious more than helpful, and ATC is rubbish... I personally would avoid flying over Italian airspace as much as I could...
So, to make it short... Knowing Italians, there's a HUGE possibility that someone on TWR has guided that poor plane onto the taxiway!!!
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Knowing the brits, and all the other english mother tongue, there is a HUGE possibility that they assumed to be on the safe side despite the correct instructions received from ATCO. 
Last edited by Henry VIII; 13th Apr 2009 at 09:57.
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Stop to shoot on the ambulance
The english ATC is fantastic , we all know it
But sorry part of that ....all the rest is 1000 time better in Italy than on the island
Architecture
History
fashion
design
food
wine
women
weather
beach
sea
etc..................
The only exeption is the ATC , That's the exeption who confirm the rules
The english ATC is fantastic , we all know it
But sorry part of that ....all the rest is 1000 time better in Italy than on the island
Architecture
History
fashion
design
food
wine
women
weather
beach
sea
etc..................
The only exeption is the ATC , That's the exeption who confirm the rules
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Henry Stop trying to turn this into a fight about nationalities! The criticisim is of CAG in particular and not Italian ATC in general. My flights originate from mainland Italy where I live and the ATC is acceptable.
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Only been there once, but I have to say the ATC was without doubt the worst I have ever come across. I had read the Notams and G/S was out as u/s and the contoller cleared us for an ILS sidestep proceedure aproach! When asked if the g/s was operational I was told no. So I said will the approach be a loc/dme then and was told yes.
Whichever way you say it, that is s
t atc!
No negative Italian remarks from me although in Genova we were told to park on stand 401 without the finger! If anyone can tell me what the finger is I'll be greatful.
D and F
Whichever way you say it, that is s
t atc! No negative Italian remarks from me although in Genova we were told to park on stand 401 without the finger! If anyone can tell me what the finger is I'll be greatful.
D and F
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Carmoisine
What about those comments:
The last one being yours...
They do not refer to CAG in particular, specifically to Italian ATC (your too).
May we know where you stand?
Henry Stop trying to turn this into a fight about nationalities! The criticisim is of CAG in particular and not Italian ATC in general. My flights originate from mainland Italy where I live and the ATC is acceptable.
Italy is a great country with great pilots But ATC !!!!!!!
Italy - lovely country, lovely people but from an aviation point of view approaching third world status methinks.
I detest flying into Italy more than anywhere else in Europe. The approach proceedures are so haphazard and unfortunately the English can be very difficult to understand.
I will thoroughly study all of the plates of the destination and the alternate before I leave. Then opt for a diversion to France.
I will thoroughly study all of the plates of the destination and the alternate before I leave. Then opt for a diversion to France.
While this does not absolve me of responsibility and I still treat every ATC call with suspicion, one feels like it is a team activity rather then the adversarial role one encounters with Italian ATC. Calling their standards Third World is being generous.
They do not refer to CAG in particular, specifically to Italian ATC (your too).
May we know where you stand?
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Seriously now...
Carmoisine
Thanks for the very informative reply. Couldn't agree more, by the way: seems like Cagliari has a few operational flaws that spoil the overall 'customer experience'. You may know that Roma ACC is civilian and Cagliari Approach is military: not to say that either is better or worse, but this may contribute to the poor coordination between the ATS units (a poor coordination which, let's be clear, I'm far from excusing).
Generally speaking, I believe the (several changes to the) runway setup in Cagliari were a blatant contributory factor to the incident. I'm not blaming ATC for not realising the 737 wasn't aligned with the proper runway, because a) I don't know whether they have a radar presentation in the Tower and b) in case they haven't, it is far from obvious to spot the error (in time) on such tightly spaced approach paths - the centerlines are approx 180 meters apart.
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Carmoisine, you have to relate your request to those guys who state
I am aware about CAG and Italian aviation environment level, simply do not accept arrogant (not to say stupid) post.
For the above reasons I replyed using same tool, hoping his/her company will consider in the next future his/her will avoiding to have such an idiot flying in Italy.
Regrdless of their professional level, when the brits, and all the other english mother tongue, will be able to manage a second, third, fourth language(s) at a decent level instead to talk with non english mother tongue as the only truth holder I'll have higher level of respect to them.
Happy Eastern
e.g.
Apply just a little bit of imagination and you can realize that, in an airport apron, there is a HUGE possibility that a "finger" is a jet bridge, or a jetway. You know... it "touches" the acft...
Of course it doesn't come from Oxford
So, to make it short... Knowing Italians, there's a HUGE possibility that someone on TWR has guided that poor plane onto the taxiway!!!
For the above reasons I replyed using same tool, hoping his/her company will consider in the next future his/her will avoiding to have such an idiot flying in Italy.
Regrdless of their professional level, when the brits, and all the other english mother tongue, will be able to manage a second, third, fourth language(s) at a decent level instead to talk with non english mother tongue as the only truth holder I'll have higher level of respect to them.
Happy Eastern
e.g.
If anyone can tell me what the finger is I'll be greatful
Of course it doesn't come from Oxford
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Sorry but am I missing something?At what altitude would one ask themselves, runway, does that look like a runway?What does a runway environment look like egh?threshold, ''visual'' definition, or even at a 100 feet where are the piano keys and the rest?Why is the approach lighting overthere someone please?So you are telling me that on CAT3 approach at minima they would identify a runway same as a taxiway?
What ever happened to aviate, navigate etc?Two people on the flightdeck, ****e go-around and try again.Sorry no excuses.Demotions or even sackings.
Henry, if unsure ask again yea?If unsure seek clarification. Basic airmanship. Lets use languages as the skapegoat shall we?
There is a procedure into CAG, and the crew could not identify the runway to me thats inexcusable for airline level flying ok?A runway looks the same in all languages!
What ever happened to aviate, navigate etc?Two people on the flightdeck, ****e go-around and try again.Sorry no excuses.Demotions or even sackings.
Henry, if unsure ask again yea?If unsure seek clarification. Basic airmanship. Lets use languages as the skapegoat shall we?
There is a procedure into CAG, and the crew could not identify the runway to me thats inexcusable for airline level flying ok?A runway looks the same in all languages!
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Apply just a little bit of imagination and you can realize that, in an airport apron, there is a HUGE possibility that a "finger" is a jet bridge, or a jetway. You know... it "touches" the acft...
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a proper perspective
Well as is the pprune norm some or most bloggers have indeed missed a proper take on this incident here. Most of all reg CAG, Italian ATC and what have you. Well I still remember similar incidents in LGW where it is not the first time a plane has landed on the taxiway. Was it ATC who guided them? Surely not! And before anyone tries to be a smart ass and bluff his way through, such incidents transcend nationality or company.
I have operated to Cagliari very recently before this mishap and thought that is was indeed an incident in waiting. However the WIP were duly notamed and even temporary charts were published with the related work phases. So the crew have got to answer in part for this error although I do sympathise with them.
Now a few prophets of doom and gloom and self declared aviation experts take on themselves to lambast Ryan Air and prophesize when something wose will happen. Well i find it hypocrital at best. One can only look a few days back and see what happened to Emirates with all their laptops, ACARS, perpetual turnarounds, aerospace SOPS, bull****, pyschometric profiling and what not. Now that was a very lucky escape indeed for pax and crew. And we had lufthansa a few months ago clipping a wing
...but no, these thing only happen to Ryan Air!! One could go on and on but my message is clear. Enough hypocrisy!
As for Ryan Air they will most probably be victims of their own success but I do not wish for an accident to be the cause. Grow up and go and pontificate elsewhere if u r in smart ass mode.
I have operated to Cagliari very recently before this mishap and thought that is was indeed an incident in waiting. However the WIP were duly notamed and even temporary charts were published with the related work phases. So the crew have got to answer in part for this error although I do sympathise with them.
Now a few prophets of doom and gloom and self declared aviation experts take on themselves to lambast Ryan Air and prophesize when something wose will happen. Well i find it hypocrital at best. One can only look a few days back and see what happened to Emirates with all their laptops, ACARS, perpetual turnarounds, aerospace SOPS, bull****, pyschometric profiling and what not. Now that was a very lucky escape indeed for pax and crew. And we had lufthansa a few months ago clipping a wing
...but no, these thing only happen to Ryan Air!! One could go on and on but my message is clear. Enough hypocrisy! As for Ryan Air they will most probably be victims of their own success but I do not wish for an accident to be the cause. Grow up and go and pontificate elsewhere if u r in smart ass mode.
abc1, if you had bothered to read the thread you might have noticed that the taxyway had indeed been used as a runway for sometime whilst work was being carried out on the runway. So, in my book it has nothing to do with identifying a taxyway from a runway, but more to do with not apparently realising that the "real" runway was back in operation. The question is: why?
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So, in my book it has nothing to do with identifying a taxyway from a runway, but more to do with not apparently realising that the "real" runway was back in operation. The question is: why?
Moreover, in case of doubt GA and come back. Unless internal policy discourage this practices.
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Thank you avaman for pointing the obvious, but me, na I never read a notam on a airport that I am about to fly into and ask the other flight crew member if they noticed anything in the notams and before briefing the procedure clearly stating stating that''there are no notams that could affect us today'' as to get a '' hang on am minute I think I'' kinda response from other crew member, and follow on with the rest of the procedural brief.That comes through training, watching a professional at work and taking that page into my book.
Some other gentleman states that I am a prophet of doom and an expert. No I am not ambivalent. All I do is that I try,thats all, I try to be a professional.I ask questions, I read literature but never do I state that I am a know it all as such attitude puts one in the frame to overlook things.But you cant tell me which side of the bread is buttered when I see my mate asking me to overnight at mine so he can do his sim session at RYR ok(after having deductions from the wage)?Is that what you call training do you?Pull your heads out and stay professional, don't look for excuses instead look for explanations and learn from them!As for my remark about Ryr I have mates there that tell me rather unusual things hence my remark about ryr ok?Good day!Lets not mention the radio procedures especially from the Istanbul hotel recruits!
Some other gentleman states that I am a prophet of doom and an expert. No I am not ambivalent. All I do is that I try,thats all, I try to be a professional.I ask questions, I read literature but never do I state that I am a know it all as such attitude puts one in the frame to overlook things.But you cant tell me which side of the bread is buttered when I see my mate asking me to overnight at mine so he can do his sim session at RYR ok(after having deductions from the wage)?Is that what you call training do you?Pull your heads out and stay professional, don't look for excuses instead look for explanations and learn from them!As for my remark about Ryr I have mates there that tell me rather unusual things hence my remark about ryr ok?Good day!Lets not mention the radio procedures especially from the Istanbul hotel recruits!
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Henry VIII
Regrdless of their professional level, when the brits, and all the other english mother tongue, will be able to manage a second, third, fourth language(s) at a decent level instead to talk with non english mother tongue as the only truth holder I'll have higher level of respect to them.
Brits may appear arrogant in their lack of linguistic skills but are by no means alone as I have found throughout Europe, including Italy. That English has become the language of aviation and certain other fields is an accident of history I will not apologise for but I see an arrogance in your post that stems from your linguistic abilities, that is NOT an accident of history.
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al446
if someone wants to speak a different language they should work elsewhere
P.S. - I did not write I'm able to talk in all that languages
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Lousy ATC, lousy English, lousy procedures
"Keep the eyes on the ball"
About the ''lousy English'', the same could be said about a number of ATC around the UK who speak with strong regional accents, with no effort whatsoever to make the task easier for pilots from abroad.