ryr Landed In a taxyway by mistake in CAG

[LLuke]

I don't agree. Some airports have several pages of notams, while the presentation is pretty dreadful, esp without syntax highlighting. On day 4/stretch 3 during short turn arounds easily to be looked over at. Apart from the crew I would expect the whole NOTAM system and the dispatcher/planner to be responsible as well.

We simply don't know if this NOTAM was included in the flights documentation, and if so, why it was not read, not remembered and or misunderstood.

Regarding the NOTAM itself, what does "RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF NORMAL OPERATIONS ON RWY 14/32" mean to a pilot that has never been there? Guess if you have a "normal" approach plate, everything is fine? Same goes for "COMPLETE REVIEW OF INSTRUMENTAL APPROACH PROCEDURES", did anything change, and if so what? Only clue one has, is the date issued vs the date printed on your plates. Newer is better as long as everything looks "normal". Same goes for "NEW AERODROME LAY-OUT"

NOTAMS are nice for flight preparation, the dispatcher can call ATC/FIO for info and then contact me. When I arrive I want to hear a warning on the ATIS/ from ATC and see nice big yellow crosses on the RWY that it is closed. Hope I don't sound too lazy

[Dutch250]

LLuke you do sound a bit lazy, sorry for saying.

We get payed a lot of money to do our job.
I think reading and understanding the notams and other information on the airport you are flying to is part of your responsibilities as an airline pilot.

And there is always the possibility to ask. When in doubt ask.
Dont just assume it must be the landing runway.

I also have flown to airports were taxiways were used as runways.
But everytime we flew there we made absolutely sure what the correct landing runway was. And even if you know the taxiway could be used as runway, that should make you even more aware.
if RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF NORMAL OPERATIONS ON RWY 14/32 is listed in the notams, the least it should do is ring a bell.

Perhaps I am to carefull.
also not saying it could never happen to me.

[LLuke]

"I think reading and understanding the notams and other information on the airport you are flying to is part of your responsibilities as an airline pilot."

Of course, like it is the responsibility of the writer of the NOTAMS to be clear in what he wants to tell us. Like it is the responsibility of the company to provide adequate and clear information to the pilots.

Just blaming the pilots would be ridiculous. Maybe this is what I really wanted to say...

[fireflybob]

If a football team loses 30 / NIL, would you blame it all on the goalkeeper?

[Henry VIII]

Not quite sure what you mean by "technical editing considerations".

I mean the bureaucratic analisys side, usually done post accident

Trigger NOTAMs are a very important tool in bringing changes to the attention of pilots -- but only if they are used properly by the originator.

And only if the flight crews consider the received information properly.

[White none please]

Dutch 250, I dont know that "getting paid a lot of money to do the job properly" would have made a difference in this case, the crew had it stacked against them on the morning, a routine flight to CAG with a jepp trip kit that for reasons as yet to be clarified, did not include the newly reinstated straight in ILS X RW32 , all the plates in the trip kit pointed to the approach 32 with a side step to the taxiway, as the crew had been doing for the last year, ATC was no help on the morning in question, no atis, an airport that on a good day you can only be sure what approach you will land from when on short finals, no company operations back up, the only clue was the one line notam buried in the middle of 3 pages of Italian notams.
As they say|"if you line up all the holes in the swiss cheese................"

In a perfect world sure they should see the the notam, in the real world...

[bookworm]

In a perfect world sure they should see the the notam, in the real world...

The point is that in a perfect world, i.e. one where the originators adhere to accepted international standards, that the NOTAM would have appeared on their PIB for the first time that morning.

Instead, what they were expected to see, mixed in with all the information noise in the PIB, was a message that had been appearing on their PIB since 15 Jan. The message contained 4 dates: 15 Jan, 25 March, 4 Dec 2008 and 12 March. The message got changed on 12 Feb as once again the project overran: identical words, now new dates: 12 Feb, 22 Apr, 4 Dec 2008, 9 Apr. And that very revised message had been appearing in their PIB for LIEE for two months since 12 Feb. So all they needed to do was pick out from all that noise was that the date had crept past 9 Apr...

What was needed (no, what was required) was a new message that said simply "From today, our procedures are different".

[Catabolic IBS]

Football team looses by 30 goals the Manager gets fired! In aviation terms the Manager/s are the two guys up front and perhaps weighted towards the LHS.

Managers as understood in aviation management circles are those that can hedge fuel badly, loose millions and then still blame the guys in the front of the aircraft!!!

[Dont Hang Up]

Human factors?

For twenty years now, 'Human Factors' have been recognised as a key consideration for all aspects of aviation in the interests of reducing mistakes and accidents.

Except, it would appear, for NOTAMS. No significant improvement in assisting the crew to quickly and easily assimilate the pertinent information from much which is irrelevant. And no highlighting of items which are particularly likely to cause confusion.

[Henry VIII]

the only clue was the one line notam buried in the middle of 3 pages of Italian notams.

for that the Dont Hang Up consideration

No significant improvement in assisting the crew to quickly and easily assimilate the pertinent information from much which is irrelevant. And no highlighting of items which are particularly likely to cause confusion.

is deeply on the spot.