EK407 Tailstrike @ ML
Min accleration check
I have always used 120 knots by around or just past the last set of Captain's bars (3000 feet). Yes, I realize that it is the high-speed regime but by that point but you could still get the airplane stopped if something were seriously wrong with the acceleration and it seems to work whether one is at max power (thus heavy) or reduced. Obviously power plays the leading role but it comes pretty close all the time +/-.
Granted that this personal rule of thumb was not the subject of thousands of man-hours of post doctoral research, four years of commentary period, and endless committee meetings, but I have found it has been pretty close in everything I have flown post military wide or narrow body including the -400 and the 777.
Would be interested if anyone else has the same experience with this.
Granted that this personal rule of thumb was not the subject of thousands of man-hours of post doctoral research, four years of commentary period, and endless committee meetings, but I have found it has been pretty close in everything I have flown post military wide or narrow body including the -400 and the 777.
Would be interested if anyone else has the same experience with this.
Last edited by Uncle Fred; 25th Mar 2009 at 16:07.
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To Midland63,
I enjoyed reading your post and for a self-proclaimed 'non-pilot', you seemed to hit the nail on the head. The big question is, why did the aircraft get airborne so late? I have no idea, and the theories put forth are just speculation at this point.
As for 'cocking-up' the takeoff figures, it is not as uncommon as you might think. This is the reason EK has instituted back-up procedures such as gross error checks. The final check, which should eliminate a large error in weight inputted into the computer, is the crosscheck of Green Dot speed. Unfortunately, if the weight entered into the laptop, is the same as the weight showing on the MCDU, then these speeds will still match (even if this weight is not an accurate reflection of the aircrafts true weight) This gross error check only shows a difference when the MCDU and laptop weights do not match.
The method I use to avoid this trap, is to cross reference the MCDU weight with the preplanned CFP (computerized flight plan) weight. The moment I see a difference, I investigate further and it should be explainable by a change in ZFW plus a change in Ramp Fuel. I go so far, as doing the math and make sure even a change as small as 500kgs, adds up.
The added benefit of cross-checking the CFP takeoff weight, is that it precludes 'forgetting' to input the Final ZFW into the MCDU after we receive it. (initially the ZFW is entered as the estimated ZFW)
The trap here, is that we have several things to do after we receive the FZFW.
1-We have to determine the final fuel load based on this new number, which again will change the takeoff weight
2-We have to send this info via ACARS to CLC (centralized load control in Dubai)
3-We have to give the final fuel load to the engineer, who could be ANYWHERE around the plane doing other duties.
4-We usually have to give this info to the ramp agent as well (who could be ANYWHERE as well)
5-Most importantly, we have to enter the new weight in the MCDU or all our figures will be in error. (perhaps I should have made this duty #1)
Someone mentioned it earlier... many, many people with their own priorities are popping into the cockpit during this time frame, so sometimes we get distracted. We are human beings.
I am not suggesting this was the cause of the problem because there are not enough facts. I just wanted to point out that it is VERY possible to make errors because the procedures in place are not good enough. I hope EK adds this final check that I use, even if it had nothing to do with that takeoff out of MEL.
I enjoyed reading your post and for a self-proclaimed 'non-pilot', you seemed to hit the nail on the head. The big question is, why did the aircraft get airborne so late? I have no idea, and the theories put forth are just speculation at this point.
As for 'cocking-up' the takeoff figures, it is not as uncommon as you might think. This is the reason EK has instituted back-up procedures such as gross error checks. The final check, which should eliminate a large error in weight inputted into the computer, is the crosscheck of Green Dot speed. Unfortunately, if the weight entered into the laptop, is the same as the weight showing on the MCDU, then these speeds will still match (even if this weight is not an accurate reflection of the aircrafts true weight) This gross error check only shows a difference when the MCDU and laptop weights do not match.
The method I use to avoid this trap, is to cross reference the MCDU weight with the preplanned CFP (computerized flight plan) weight. The moment I see a difference, I investigate further and it should be explainable by a change in ZFW plus a change in Ramp Fuel. I go so far, as doing the math and make sure even a change as small as 500kgs, adds up.
The added benefit of cross-checking the CFP takeoff weight, is that it precludes 'forgetting' to input the Final ZFW into the MCDU after we receive it. (initially the ZFW is entered as the estimated ZFW)
The trap here, is that we have several things to do after we receive the FZFW.
1-We have to determine the final fuel load based on this new number, which again will change the takeoff weight
2-We have to send this info via ACARS to CLC (centralized load control in Dubai)
3-We have to give the final fuel load to the engineer, who could be ANYWHERE around the plane doing other duties.
4-We usually have to give this info to the ramp agent as well (who could be ANYWHERE as well)
5-Most importantly, we have to enter the new weight in the MCDU or all our figures will be in error. (perhaps I should have made this duty #1)
Someone mentioned it earlier... many, many people with their own priorities are popping into the cockpit during this time frame, so sometimes we get distracted. We are human beings.
I am not suggesting this was the cause of the problem because there are not enough facts. I just wanted to point out that it is VERY possible to make errors because the procedures in place are not good enough. I hope EK adds this final check that I use, even if it had nothing to do with that takeoff out of MEL.
PPRuNette
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Tyre marks on the grass at end of 16
A/c returned with an antenna lodged....Localiser antenna that sits (usually) about 6ft off the ground!
A/c took out some of the rabbits (strobes)
A/c missed roof of small building by 4 inches
A/c 100 feet approx before end of runway - struck 3 times before rotation with NO runway left to spare.
The words of someone investigating....
"The worst incident without loss of life in this country to date"
Disclaimer;
These are not my personal views or opinions rather 2nd hand info from reliable sources - this is a Rumour network after all
Cheers
GG
A/c returned with an antenna lodged....Localiser antenna that sits (usually) about 6ft off the ground!
A/c took out some of the rabbits (strobes)
A/c missed roof of small building by 4 inches
A/c 100 feet approx before end of runway - struck 3 times before rotation with NO runway left to spare.
The words of someone investigating....
"The worst incident without loss of life in this country to date"
Disclaimer;
These are not my personal views or opinions rather 2nd hand info from reliable sources - this is a Rumour network after all
Cheers
GG
Just on the almost ZERO media coverage for this incident: I think posters are right by saying that if this was QF, the media would be all over it like seagulls on a chip.
But I think the reason EK have escaped (relatively) unscathed by the media is that they are not an Australian airline. It's the good old Aussie "I don't give a rats...they're from Arabia or somewhere..." attitude.
And go easy on "sparky-boy" from 34C. He might have mixed his seat number up, and he may have seen reflected sparks from the tail-strike, or even from the electrical damage to the ground equipment. Just sayin'!
But I think the reason EK have escaped (relatively) unscathed by the media is that they are not an Australian airline. It's the good old Aussie "I don't give a rats...they're from Arabia or somewhere..." attitude.
And go easy on "sparky-boy" from 34C. He might have mixed his seat number up, and he may have seen reflected sparks from the tail-strike, or even from the electrical damage to the ground equipment. Just sayin'!
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The first hand accounts of this event that I have heard tell me that the sparks from the tail were VERY bright. one account I have been given was that they "lit the place up like it was day", poor guy was shaken, he thought that he was witnessing a plane crash.
another account I have heard was that the light from the sparks was very bright on the video footage they saw (what was that question about CCTV footage?
)
so phoenix's account is quite reasonable from the reports I have heard.
Please bear in mind that this is hearsay from work colleagues, but they back up the 3 tailstrikes and the extremely bright sparks already mentioned.
another account I have heard was that the light from the sparks was very bright on the video footage they saw (what was that question about CCTV footage?
)so phoenix's account is quite reasonable from the reports I have heard.
Please bear in mind that this is hearsay from work colleagues, but they back up the 3 tailstrikes and the extremely bright sparks already mentioned.
A/c missed roof of small building by 4 inches
The localiser antenna which is on RWY CL is cleary missing pieces.
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Does anybody have comparable views that an AIRLINE would have a “strategy” in place, such as a BOMB HOAX by one of its own staff (as happened the day after) to take the UK MEDIA ATTENTION off the Australian tail strike incident? Lessons learnt from previous incidents i.e. JNB. That is, have a pre approved plan to take the media/public attention off a far more serious incident & photographed incident.
Just curious or maybe being way too sceptical & clandestine?
"The worst incident without loss of life in this country to date" is a well written article to view – for those that have not! (previously posted by denabol)
Emirates flight EK 407 was the most dangerous non fatal accident to a jet airliner in Australia - Plane Talking
BW
Just curious or maybe being way too sceptical & clandestine?
"The worst incident without loss of life in this country to date" is a well written article to view – for those that have not! (previously posted by denabol)
Emirates flight EK 407 was the most dangerous non fatal accident to a jet airliner in Australia - Plane Talking
BW
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bluewater, can I suggest you add your post to the "You can tell when you've been in the Middle East too long..." thread on jet blast? After some years in the desert, I'm as paranoid as the next bloke about my (expat) lords and masters, but I think you've been reading too many Robert Ludlum novels, mate.
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Uncle Fred
Be very careful, common sense is NOT allowed anymore.
The SOP/Commitee will come up with a LEGALLY waterproof solution for every scenario.
They will not be there on the day when it happens though, and won't be seen for dust when the solids hit the fan.
Btw I use pretty much the same rule of thumb
Be very careful, common sense is NOT allowed anymore.
The SOP/Commitee will come up with a LEGALLY waterproof solution for every scenario.
They will not be there on the day when it happens though, and won't be seen for dust when the solids hit the fan.
Btw I use pretty much the same rule of thumb
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Using the 1230Z YMML METAR from post #16, the weights from post #103 and the Airbus laptop performance figures (FOVE) the approximate computed optimum take off performance probably should have looked something like this;
363,000 KG TOW V1 154 V2 163 VR 173 FLAPS 3 FLEX TEMP 40C
If an input of 263,000 KG TOW was made the laptop would have spat out the following instead;
263.000 KG TOW V1 144 V2 147 VR 154 FLAPS 1 FLEX TEMP 73C
and if the ZFW of 227,000 KG had been entered as the TOW you would get
227.000 KG TOW V1 142 V2 142 VR 150 FLAPS 3 FLEX TEMP 74C
FOVE shows the take off run for both 363T and 263T as in the order of 3400-3550M where as 227T would be a take off run of only 2650M.
Perhaps some of you rocket scientists out there know the difference in thrust between Flex 40 and Flex 73. All I know is it is going to be significant! I haven’t flown one for a while, but if I recall correctly, Max Flex is a 40% reduction in thrust on the A345.
If it was an input error, it is easy to see that if you are planned to be down near the end of the runway anyway and then you add 100T, remove 10-20% of the thrust and rotate 15-20 knots early, the result is not going to be a good one.
Anyway, thank goodness everyone is alive to talk about it.
363,000 KG TOW V1 154 V2 163 VR 173 FLAPS 3 FLEX TEMP 40C
If an input of 263,000 KG TOW was made the laptop would have spat out the following instead;
263.000 KG TOW V1 144 V2 147 VR 154 FLAPS 1 FLEX TEMP 73C
and if the ZFW of 227,000 KG had been entered as the TOW you would get
227.000 KG TOW V1 142 V2 142 VR 150 FLAPS 3 FLEX TEMP 74C
FOVE shows the take off run for both 363T and 263T as in the order of 3400-3550M where as 227T would be a take off run of only 2650M.
Perhaps some of you rocket scientists out there know the difference in thrust between Flex 40 and Flex 73. All I know is it is going to be significant! I haven’t flown one for a while, but if I recall correctly, Max Flex is a 40% reduction in thrust on the A345.
If it was an input error, it is easy to see that if you are planned to be down near the end of the runway anyway and then you add 100T, remove 10-20% of the thrust and rotate 15-20 knots early, the result is not going to be a good one.
Anyway, thank goodness everyone is alive to talk about it.
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Let's for a moment go along with the situation that a wrong figure was set up in the box and not picked up (for this incident or others that happened).
What can lead to such errors?
1. Some guys state this should have been picked up by "feeling" the speeds can't be right for such a weight. With the optimizing on computers for many different flap/weight/reduced-thrust settings, this becomes very difficult. With former aircraft it was simple: Less flaps -> higher speeds. Today, and especially with Airbus, this simple equation no longer applies. How many times was I surprised when changing the figures (LMC),by what kind of weird different speeds resulted.
Solution: Maybe a more linear and logic function would help us.
2. Second reason is overload and overcrowding of the cockpit during preparation, leading to serious distraction. It is a utterly silly EK characteristic, that the augmenting crew (2 in this incident) have NO seats allocated to them in the cabin. They are doomed to go to the torpedo tube (lie down only!!), situated in the very remote back of the aircraft when airborne. For the whole ground time and TO/Ldg, however they will be confined to sit in your back. Now having the loadmaster, mechanic, purser, company representative already trying to bring in their priorities, the poor two sods only block space and bring in distraction. As much as I like 4 more eyes during T/O, Ldg or emergencies (which is NOT possible inflight with the crap EK set up!! because they are stuck in the back!!), as much do I like a calm cockpit during preparation and all kinds of calculations, so as to NOT screw up these things.
Solution: Maybe EK should go over their management induced bad set-up.
3. Time for preparation is another factor. As EK does not provide its crew with company laptops, nor provides them as a standard with internet access (home or abroad), this leads to receiving the figures, notams, WX etc. and access to charts upon arrival on the aircraft only. We all know that the stress only starts then. A thorough preparation going through all that stuff might be easily disturbed by too many sods hanging around. Sending the flight info to the hotel would allow studying during transport, as the really cheap variant, but not even this is done by EK.
There is a lot of room for improvement there, but, halas, it all costs some Dirhams and they are unfortunately spent on more VPs, but not on operational improvements.
What can lead to such errors?
1. Some guys state this should have been picked up by "feeling" the speeds can't be right for such a weight. With the optimizing on computers for many different flap/weight/reduced-thrust settings, this becomes very difficult. With former aircraft it was simple: Less flaps -> higher speeds. Today, and especially with Airbus, this simple equation no longer applies. How many times was I surprised when changing the figures (LMC),by what kind of weird different speeds resulted.
Solution: Maybe a more linear and logic function would help us.
2. Second reason is overload and overcrowding of the cockpit during preparation, leading to serious distraction. It is a utterly silly EK characteristic, that the augmenting crew (2 in this incident) have NO seats allocated to them in the cabin. They are doomed to go to the torpedo tube (lie down only!!), situated in the very remote back of the aircraft when airborne. For the whole ground time and TO/Ldg, however they will be confined to sit in your back. Now having the loadmaster, mechanic, purser, company representative already trying to bring in their priorities, the poor two sods only block space and bring in distraction. As much as I like 4 more eyes during T/O, Ldg or emergencies (which is NOT possible inflight with the crap EK set up!! because they are stuck in the back!!), as much do I like a calm cockpit during preparation and all kinds of calculations, so as to NOT screw up these things.
Solution: Maybe EK should go over their management induced bad set-up.
3. Time for preparation is another factor. As EK does not provide its crew with company laptops, nor provides them as a standard with internet access (home or abroad), this leads to receiving the figures, notams, WX etc. and access to charts upon arrival on the aircraft only. We all know that the stress only starts then. A thorough preparation going through all that stuff might be easily disturbed by too many sods hanging around. Sending the flight info to the hotel would allow studying during transport, as the really cheap variant, but not even this is done by EK.
There is a lot of room for improvement there, but, halas, it all costs some Dirhams and they are unfortunately spent on more VPs, but not on operational improvements.
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Bluewater,
Great conspiracy - almost ranks next to the one about the lunar landings!
EK can and will do many things to protect its image but I can't see how they can make one individual do something which will potentially give him 5 + years in jail for plus a top spot on the terrorist watch list for life!
Just think about it for a mo.. the SVP (EK conspirancy department) calls you in for tea and biscuits ("right billy, its like this.... we need you to..." ). Get real, the two events are unconnected!!
But hey that's why its a rumours network and makes interesting reading next to v speed and load weight theories.
For fox sake getting me a firkin beer
Great conspiracy - almost ranks next to the one about the lunar landings!
EK can and will do many things to protect its image but I can't see how they can make one individual do something which will potentially give him 5 + years in jail for plus a top spot on the terrorist watch list for life!
Just think about it for a mo.. the SVP (EK conspirancy department) calls you in for tea and biscuits ("right billy, its like this.... we need you to..." ). Get real, the two events are unconnected!!
But hey that's why its a rumours network and makes interesting reading next to v speed and load weight theories.
For fox sake getting me a firkin beer
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bluewater, can I suggest you add your post to the "You can tell when you've been in the Middle East too long..." thread on jet blast? After some years in the desert, I'm as paranoid as the next bloke about my (expat) lords and masters, but I think you've been reading too many Robert Ludlum novels, mate.
Andu – affirmative, been around ME and other more clandestine areas in my 20+ aviation years, which reaffirms my “speculation”. As an aside, occasionally get the MRS to slip into an abaya for our evening distraction, which makes me think (and you I suspect) the ETD is not too far-away! PS. Who’s Robert Ludlum?
bluewater - having read your post I wanted to ask you what you thought about the Twin Towers conspiracy documentary?
Nicholas49 – I think you know my answer to that. Curiously, we just had an interesting topical conversation over dinner on my latest night stop, over exactly that. Worthy of note, the Americans recently opened there biggest Embassy (outside of the US) in IRAQ, being somewhat self-evident that there’s going to be a fairly sizable commitment to Iraq by the U.S. government in all forms, for several years, 21 buildings on 104 acres. I am diverging from topic at hand and Andu, yourself and foxandfirkin will want me locked up.
thefoxandfirkin – heaven forbid, not suggesting for a minute there was any “tea and bikies” and they gave the poor bloke a brief! That would be ranked next to the lunar landing!
BTW – its only a theory...a bloody good one
PS. "You can tell when you've been in the Middle East too long when you know which end of swarma to unwrap.
Best of luck to the crew. Whatever caused the predicament, it seems they solved it very well.
Andu – affirmative, been around ME and other more clandestine areas in my 20+ aviation years, which reaffirms my “speculation”. As an aside, occasionally get the MRS to slip into an abaya for our evening distraction, which makes me think (and you I suspect) the ETD is not too far-away! PS. Who’s Robert Ludlum?
bluewater - having read your post I wanted to ask you what you thought about the Twin Towers conspiracy documentary?
Nicholas49 – I think you know my answer to that. Curiously, we just had an interesting topical conversation over dinner on my latest night stop, over exactly that. Worthy of note, the Americans recently opened there biggest Embassy (outside of the US) in IRAQ, being somewhat self-evident that there’s going to be a fairly sizable commitment to Iraq by the U.S. government in all forms, for several years, 21 buildings on 104 acres. I am diverging from topic at hand and Andu, yourself and foxandfirkin will want me locked up.
thefoxandfirkin – heaven forbid, not suggesting for a minute there was any “tea and bikies” and they gave the poor bloke a brief! That would be ranked next to the lunar landing!
BTW – its only a theory...a bloody good one
PS. "You can tell when you've been in the Middle East too long when you know which end of swarma to unwrap.
Best of luck to the crew. Whatever caused the predicament, it seems they solved it very well.
Pool:
Are you guys not able to access the (Lido?) flt plan in the hotel room prior to departure ?;( assuming room inet is free -(company agreement ) and working ok-not always the case these days).
In my outfit, the CFP is available for viewing online generally 3 hours before departure, (with a cross check of the latest plan # once on board )and I try to make a point of having a look if possible (long haul ) before leaving the room, also same at home; (15 minutes before pick up is good enough), purely to avoid the pitfalls of which you speak--predeparture mayhem in the cockpit as you try to prepare for the flight.
The calm of the room is the place to digest info about rtes/loads/notams/intams/mel/fueluplifts/wx etc. etc. etc. Once on board, the old adage of "too many cooks spoil the broth" still holds true.Quite easy to miss things with the inevitable distractions.
Let's for a moment go along with the situation that a wrong figure was set up in the box and not picked up (for this incident or others that happened).
What can lead to such errors?
2. Second reason is overload and overcrowding of the cockpit during preparation, leading to serious distraction. Now having the loadmaster, mechanic, purser, company representative already trying to bring in their priorities, the poor two sods only block space and bring in distraction. As much as I like 4 more eyes during T/O, Ldg or emergencies (which is NOT possible inflight with the crap EK set up!! because they are stuck in the back!!), as much do I like a calm cockpit during preparation and all kinds of calculations, so as to NOT screw up these things.
3. Time for preparation is another factor. As EK does not provide its crew with company laptops, nor provides them as a standard with internet access (home or abroad), this leads to receiving the figures, notams, WX etc. and access to charts upon arrival on the aircraft only. We all know that the stress only starts then. A thorough preparation going through all that stuff might be easily disturbed by too many sods hanging around. Sending the flight info to the hotel would allow studying during transport, as the really cheap variant, but not even this is done by EK.
What can lead to such errors?
2. Second reason is overload and overcrowding of the cockpit during preparation, leading to serious distraction. Now having the loadmaster, mechanic, purser, company representative already trying to bring in their priorities, the poor two sods only block space and bring in distraction. As much as I like 4 more eyes during T/O, Ldg or emergencies (which is NOT possible inflight with the crap EK set up!! because they are stuck in the back!!), as much do I like a calm cockpit during preparation and all kinds of calculations, so as to NOT screw up these things.
3. Time for preparation is another factor. As EK does not provide its crew with company laptops, nor provides them as a standard with internet access (home or abroad), this leads to receiving the figures, notams, WX etc. and access to charts upon arrival on the aircraft only. We all know that the stress only starts then. A thorough preparation going through all that stuff might be easily disturbed by too many sods hanging around. Sending the flight info to the hotel would allow studying during transport, as the really cheap variant, but not even this is done by EK.
In my outfit, the CFP is available for viewing online generally 3 hours before departure, (with a cross check of the latest plan # once on board )and I try to make a point of having a look if possible (long haul ) before leaving the room, also same at home; (15 minutes before pick up is good enough), purely to avoid the pitfalls of which you speak--predeparture mayhem in the cockpit as you try to prepare for the flight.
The calm of the room is the place to digest info about rtes/loads/notams/intams/mel/fueluplifts/wx etc. etc. etc. Once on board, the old adage of "too many cooks spoil the broth" still holds true.Quite easy to miss things with the inevitable distractions.
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Pool raises valid points regarding flight deck management in Emirates and over crowding on the Flight Deck .
Having Access to the Lido Flight plan and looking at this either at home or in the hotel makes my life easier and simplifies briefing, yeah I know its a bugger you might have to fork out for the Internet connection.
I don't like the concept where EK have us operating 3 very different Aircraft Types A330-200 then the A340-300 and A340-500. Operationally Emirates view this as only 2 different types for currency purposes. That is you could be checked out on the A345 however as long as you operate the A343 for currency purposes(very different machine than the 345) you are deemed to be current on the both and vice / verse . I remember it took me a while to feel comfortable with the 345 for the very reason that I hardly flew it yet was deemed current as I had flown the A343 !
Having Access to the Lido Flight plan and looking at this either at home or in the hotel makes my life easier and simplifies briefing, yeah I know its a bugger you might have to fork out for the Internet connection.
I don't like the concept where EK have us operating 3 very different Aircraft Types A330-200 then the A340-300 and A340-500. Operationally Emirates view this as only 2 different types for currency purposes. That is you could be checked out on the A345 however as long as you operate the A343 for currency purposes(very different machine than the 345) you are deemed to be current on the both and vice / verse . I remember it took me a while to feel comfortable with the 345 for the very reason that I hardly flew it yet was deemed current as I had flown the A343 !