EK407 Tailstrike @ ML
short flights long nights
just to make something clear...EK flight plans/notams/WX are available to crew (about 3 hours before depature)..anywhere in the world. At some EK hotels computers are avaiable to log in and down load, at others internet is free but requires a crew member to have a laptop...at others there is no free access at all........
having said that....if you dont get too carried away about airports you will never go to..airport briefing is ok (standby for incoming)
having said that....if you dont get too carried away about airports you will never go to..airport briefing is ok (standby for incoming)
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Some valid points raised by Pool.
The amount of paperwork we need to check prior to a flight makes the check-in time (usually 1hr), hardly viable.
When the going is good, it's fine (just about). However with just one distraction, pilots then have to make up the time somehow. And that is when corners are cut....... or gross errors not noticed.
The amount of paperwork we need to check prior to a flight makes the check-in time (usually 1hr), hardly viable.
When the going is good, it's fine (just about). However with just one distraction, pilots then have to make up the time somehow. And that is when corners are cut....... or gross errors not noticed.
Join Date: Oct 1998
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Pre departure preperation.
The pre departure preperation, if MANAGED well can work effectively and be incorporated as a third safety check.
For example, get sombody else (support F/O) to do the LPC check too with the other LPC and compare results with the operating F/O. Ask the aug. CA to check the Log Book prior to other duties. etc.
The distractions will always be there, just manage them well.
I like the wheel idea!!
For example, get sombody else (support F/O) to do the LPC check too with the other LPC and compare results with the operating F/O. Ask the aug. CA to check the Log Book prior to other duties. etc.
The distractions will always be there, just manage them well.
I like the wheel idea!!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
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Groper- it's a TWO CREW aeroplane!!!!! The augment F/O isn't there to check YOUR LPC calculations.. The augment crew is there so that you can TAKE INFLIGHT REST..
How the hell do you cope on a two crew Doha flight mate????????
The whole problem is that there are TOO MANY PEOPLE ON THE FLIGHTDECK, and that includes THE AUGMENTING CREW.....
I ALWAYS tell them to stay out of the flightdeck until cabin doors close for departure - I DON"T WANT their "HELP" and I DON"T NEED it
Do not even touch the laptop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Birdbrain - I've found it quite easy operating 3 different types over the last 5 years or however long EK have had 332,343 and 345.. What's the problem you have 'cos I don't understand it
How the hell do you cope on a two crew Doha flight mate????????
The whole problem is that there are TOO MANY PEOPLE ON THE FLIGHTDECK, and that includes THE AUGMENTING CREW.....
I ALWAYS tell them to stay out of the flightdeck until cabin doors close for departure - I DON"T WANT their "HELP" and I DON"T NEED it
Do not even touch the laptop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Birdbrain - I've found it quite easy operating 3 different types over the last 5 years or however long EK have had 332,343 and 345.. What's the problem you have 'cos I don't understand it
Bottums Up
Slight thread drift
And here is where we pilots make the rod for our backs. So time conscious, and proud of being able to make an on-time departure, we find a way to do more and more in the allotted time, proving to our employers that the job can be done with less and less time. We should run late when conditions contrive to delay normal preparation and just accept the appropriate delay code.
When the going is good, it's fine (just about). However with just one distraction, pilots then have to make up the time somehow. And that is when corners are cut....... or gross errors not noticed.
Malcom is a genius. All these years of messing around with drivel like Perf. A, TORA, headwind component, air density etc. and it turns out we can dispense with it all if only the manufacturers would put a little wheel at the back.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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White Knight
Great CRM and Command Skills "MATE" - using all the valuable assets you have to assist in a safe departure.
Seems you are the ONE with the problem if you cannot work with more crew, can't you multi task?
Thank goodness my company encourages assistance where possible from the "heavy" crew.
Great CRM and Command Skills "MATE" - using all the valuable assets you have to assist in a safe departure.
Seems you are the ONE with the problem if you cannot work with more crew, can't you multi task?
Thank goodness my company encourages assistance where possible from the "heavy" crew.
Join Date: Aug 2008
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I could be mistaken, but A6-ERG seems to be missing from Melbourne airport this morning (26mar)?
Has it been moved elsewhere during the night?
I can't see it anywhere over at the John holland hangar or the cargo apron.
Has it been moved elsewhere during the night?
I can't see it anywhere over at the John holland hangar or the cargo apron.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Oh Knackers, I had a good belly laugh over that! I guess PaulG didn't read the entire thread by his reaction.
As for White Knight...
I nearly had a good chuck over your assertions. If you're truly serious about what you wrote, then I have to agree with Iceman that you've just espoused the worst possible CRM edict that I've ever had the misfortune to read.
You must be a delight to work with; sharing, open, a real mentor...
NOT!!
I've now worked for a couple companies who would string you up if you were ever foolish enough to verbalise that drivel in front of other pilots.
As for White Knight...
I nearly had a good chuck over your assertions. If you're truly serious about what you wrote, then I have to agree with Iceman that you've just espoused the worst possible CRM edict that I've ever had the misfortune to read.
You must be a delight to work with; sharing, open, a real mentor...
NOT!!
I've now worked for a couple companies who would string you up if you were ever foolish enough to verbalise that drivel in front of other pilots.
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Rad_Alt _Alive. Yes I have read every post on this thread. I was one of the ones who got sucked in by the very early rumour that the crew had departed post haste for Dubai. I did appreciate the joke too.
Paul
Paul
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To make it clear:
EK has a LIDO viewer and access to flight plan on the net. BUT, ... you need your own laptop, where their self elected industry standard (for crew rest comparison), the newbees down south, have this industry standard, providing laptops with all capabilities, but suddenly this is no standard anymore ..... Not a big deal you might say, almost agreed.
Then you need to buy the internet access in about 50% of hotels. Again, not a big deal, just some 100dhs a day. Additionally in most hotels where you really appreciate early info, the connection is painfully, if not prohibitively slow. As a third, where you really like early info (ULR, ex. JFK) due to early pick-up and volume, you can be almost assured the flpl + notam is not yet loaded when you have to leave.
Overcrowding of the cockpit cannot be solved by just sending out the collegues. Where do they go? Pax are boarding and galleys busy. It's not only them, but just as much their crewbags that block. Outside check ok, but this happens early and takes 10'. It's when all comes together towards the last 10': actual ZFW, fuel calc, info to mechanic, to station, TO-calculations, new ATIS, rwy change, gathering pre-dep-clrc etc. etc. Allthough I do not agree with the tone of lovely White Knight, he's right about having to do that stuff yourself together with your FO/CAPT. There is a distinct routine that is established with a TWO man cockpit, not three or four, so at this stage they should be able to sit on a nice seat, away from the cockpit, not in anyones way (they should also be able to sit on a 7 hour rest, and not just forced to lie flat ... but that's another beautiful EK story).
For lookout and radio back-up monitoring they are great in the cockpit, but it stops quite there, otherwisew they distract.
I think most pilots know how to manage distractions well - (thanks for this heads-up, I wouldn't have thought of it ...) - until the distractions distract them. I'd rather have them out than having to manage them, the unforseen will pop up just as much.
EK has a LIDO viewer and access to flight plan on the net. BUT, ... you need your own laptop, where their self elected industry standard (for crew rest comparison), the newbees down south, have this industry standard, providing laptops with all capabilities, but suddenly this is no standard anymore ..... Not a big deal you might say, almost agreed.
Then you need to buy the internet access in about 50% of hotels. Again, not a big deal, just some 100dhs a day. Additionally in most hotels where you really appreciate early info, the connection is painfully, if not prohibitively slow. As a third, where you really like early info (ULR, ex. JFK) due to early pick-up and volume, you can be almost assured the flpl + notam is not yet loaded when you have to leave.
Overcrowding of the cockpit cannot be solved by just sending out the collegues. Where do they go? Pax are boarding and galleys busy. It's not only them, but just as much their crewbags that block. Outside check ok, but this happens early and takes 10'. It's when all comes together towards the last 10': actual ZFW, fuel calc, info to mechanic, to station, TO-calculations, new ATIS, rwy change, gathering pre-dep-clrc etc. etc. Allthough I do not agree with the tone of lovely White Knight, he's right about having to do that stuff yourself together with your FO/CAPT. There is a distinct routine that is established with a TWO man cockpit, not three or four, so at this stage they should be able to sit on a nice seat, away from the cockpit, not in anyones way (they should also be able to sit on a 7 hour rest, and not just forced to lie flat ... but that's another beautiful EK story).
For lookout and radio back-up monitoring they are great in the cockpit, but it stops quite there, otherwisew they distract.
I think most pilots know how to manage distractions well - (thanks for this heads-up, I wouldn't have thought of it ...
) - until the distractions distract them. I'd rather have them out than having to manage them, the unforseen will pop up just as much.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Aircraft Self Weighing
If I may add my two dirhams worth to the aircraft weight issue...
With the current airfield technology available, why can't they design weighing pads at the parking stands that will give an aircraft's weight dynamically to within a given acceptable tolerance e.g (+/- 1000kgs) and displayed on a board somewhere that all can see.
This would be used only as a reference weight for load masters and aircrew, the load sheet would still remain the legal dispatch document, but at least the risk of a gross error can be greatly mitigated.
I believe this is used on some helicopters and biz jet operations, although those systems are portable, similar to the lift/pushback tugs. Of course trucks have been using the drive on system for years for road tax purposes, why can't we use the same to make aviation safer?
As for the other ongoing discussion on the "EK ETD - 15 mins window of controlled chaos" , this is certainly an area that could be better managed, having been subjected to it for the 15 yrs.
But for sure, the assistance of the other relief crew members is an added bonus and definitely not a hinderance. I do not agree with the ramblings to the contrary on this forum. H6
With the current airfield technology available, why can't they design weighing pads at the parking stands that will give an aircraft's weight dynamically to within a given acceptable tolerance e.g (+/- 1000kgs) and displayed on a board somewhere that all can see.
This would be used only as a reference weight for load masters and aircrew, the load sheet would still remain the legal dispatch document, but at least the risk of a gross error can be greatly mitigated.
I believe this is used on some helicopters and biz jet operations, although those systems are portable, similar to the lift/pushback tugs. Of course trucks have been using the drive on system for years for road tax purposes, why can't we use the same to make aviation safer?
As for the other ongoing discussion on the "EK ETD - 15 mins window of controlled chaos" , this is certainly an area that could be better managed, having been subjected to it for the 15 yrs.
But for sure, the assistance of the other relief crew members is an added bonus and definitely not a hinderance. I do not agree with the ramblings to the contrary on this forum. H6
Join Date: Aug 1998
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You will never, ever see a real time weight for any flight.
The primary reason for that will be that if you sign off on any loadsheet which says you are departing at your RTOW you are probably at least ten tons over that weight in truth.
Reason:
-unrealistic average weights for passengers
-hilariously unrealistic weights for carry on bags. I did a flight to Toronto a little while back and the queue of pax lined up in the jetway bent almost double under the weight of their carry-ons looked like a 19th century expedition to discover the source of the Nile. If I had stood in front of them with cheroot and a pith helmet we could have had a tableau vivant.
The primary reason for that will be that if you sign off on any loadsheet which says you are departing at your RTOW you are probably at least ten tons over that weight in truth.
Reason:
-unrealistic average weights for passengers
-hilariously unrealistic weights for carry on bags. I did a flight to Toronto a little while back and the queue of pax lined up in the jetway bent almost double under the weight of their carry-ons looked like a 19th century expedition to discover the source of the Nile. If I had stood in front of them with cheroot and a pith helmet we could have had a tableau vivant.
Join Date: Oct 1998
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Pre departure preperation.
Thank you, merci ICEMAN50 and Trimotor
You took the words right out of my mouth, cannot be bothered answering WhiteKnight as he missed seeing the forest for the trees.
Cheers
You took the words right out of my mouth, cannot be bothered answering WhiteKnight as he missed seeing the forest for the trees.
Cheers
Last edited by Capt Groper; 26th Mar 2009 at 07:47.