CargoLion lost battle......
Guest
Posts: n/a
It is somewhat annoying to read posts that
imply that non EU registered carriers based in Europe operate to a lower standard. People I have flown with in such airlines are skilled, competant, qualified and very experienced individuals, often flying more demanding aircraft and routes, under a great deal of commercial pressure. Aviation IS AND SHOULD BE AN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS. Some people are just snobs, and should grow up!!
imply that non EU registered carriers based in Europe operate to a lower standard. People I have flown with in such airlines are skilled, competant, qualified and very experienced individuals, often flying more demanding aircraft and routes, under a great deal of commercial pressure. Aviation IS AND SHOULD BE AN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS. Some people are just snobs, and should grow up!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Bozzo:
You are right in most respects.Unfortunately you do not seem to understand that the majority of contracts were "lost" not to any one departments incompetance. What people see on the streets and what actually takes place behind closed doors are two separate issues. Cargo Lion had to change its operating strategy to survive. It tried to change too late and in the wrong direction. Offering antiquated equipment complying to JAR standards at antiquated equipment rates does not work. The numbers do not ring. Their simply is not enough money to go around and somewhere the pinch has to be felt. DC8's should have been abandoned years ago and 747's should have been adopted as per MK and just about everyone else. But as you say"head in the sand"
You are right in most respects.Unfortunately you do not seem to understand that the majority of contracts were "lost" not to any one departments incompetance. What people see on the streets and what actually takes place behind closed doors are two separate issues. Cargo Lion had to change its operating strategy to survive. It tried to change too late and in the wrong direction. Offering antiquated equipment complying to JAR standards at antiquated equipment rates does not work. The numbers do not ring. Their simply is not enough money to go around and somewhere the pinch has to be felt. DC8's should have been abandoned years ago and 747's should have been adopted as per MK and just about everyone else. But as you say"head in the sand"
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi everybody,
First of all many thanks folks. It was a privilege to enjoy such an outstanding supportive, dedicated and loyal workforce. This outstanding support helped tremendously and might pay off for a project “Phoenix”. The demise of Cargo Lion certainly wasn’t caused by high salaries or any lack of professionalism.
Critics against management: I started my aviation charier as a pilot who thought, like many of you, that it would be easy to improve a lot of things the management does. Believe me it’s not that easy. Being the boss doesn’t give you free decisions, it means considering many different options/opinions and to stick to rules. That has absolutely nothing to do with the "head in the sand syndrome" or the "I know better than everyone else" syndrome. People who believe that haven’t understood anything yet.
Bozzo, it’s simply not true that Cargo Lion went through many contracts because of maintenance. Cargo Lion mainly operated short to medium term contracts. The main problems for Cargo Lion aside from the unfair conditions in Europe were the DC10 (see below) and a problem caused by Timco. The person responsible for that in-house lost his job over that.
The acquisition of aircraft isn’t a simple task. Firstly, we didn’t get the DC10 without contract. In a ‘chicken and situation’ we still had some business lined up but became victim of our clients diminishing market. The DC10 wasn’t the aircraft of first choice but the best option within realistic reach. In our case a 747-200 wouldn’t have worked either.
B747-400 (or even MD11): We would have loved to get a big fleet. It was just a matter of the required pocket money. In Europe you can’t go to the stock market as easily as in the US to get mega millions.
EU/JAA/JAR: One shouldn’t blame any business taking advantage of the policies of the EU. They are quite right to exploit this lack of understanding by the JAA. While having created a quite good platform to increase aviation safety with the JARs the JAA and the EU have destroyed the same by allowing any third world (or wanna be third world) or other foreign carrier take any business in the EU. The US got it right: by enforcing a foreign carrier licensing they same rights and duties for everybody.
A word about the rogue carriers free allowed in Europe. It is not a question whether their management or staff are professional or not. The point is that they operate outside of any real aviation authority supervision and in the tough competition of our market they are forced to cut corners. Thus the lack of expensive spares and/or tired professionals diminishes safety.
The aim of a foreign air carrier licence in the EU would not be to ban such carriers but to help them to enforce better standards. The result would be an improved and safer market for all of us.
BeePee
------------------
Diesel 8 forever!
First of all many thanks folks. It was a privilege to enjoy such an outstanding supportive, dedicated and loyal workforce. This outstanding support helped tremendously and might pay off for a project “Phoenix”. The demise of Cargo Lion certainly wasn’t caused by high salaries or any lack of professionalism.
Critics against management: I started my aviation charier as a pilot who thought, like many of you, that it would be easy to improve a lot of things the management does. Believe me it’s not that easy. Being the boss doesn’t give you free decisions, it means considering many different options/opinions and to stick to rules. That has absolutely nothing to do with the "head in the sand syndrome" or the "I know better than everyone else" syndrome. People who believe that haven’t understood anything yet.
Bozzo, it’s simply not true that Cargo Lion went through many contracts because of maintenance. Cargo Lion mainly operated short to medium term contracts. The main problems for Cargo Lion aside from the unfair conditions in Europe were the DC10 (see below) and a problem caused by Timco. The person responsible for that in-house lost his job over that.
The acquisition of aircraft isn’t a simple task. Firstly, we didn’t get the DC10 without contract. In a ‘chicken and situation’ we still had some business lined up but became victim of our clients diminishing market. The DC10 wasn’t the aircraft of first choice but the best option within realistic reach. In our case a 747-200 wouldn’t have worked either.
B747-400 (or even MD11): We would have loved to get a big fleet. It was just a matter of the required pocket money. In Europe you can’t go to the stock market as easily as in the US to get mega millions.
EU/JAA/JAR: One shouldn’t blame any business taking advantage of the policies of the EU. They are quite right to exploit this lack of understanding by the JAA. While having created a quite good platform to increase aviation safety with the JARs the JAA and the EU have destroyed the same by allowing any third world (or wanna be third world) or other foreign carrier take any business in the EU. The US got it right: by enforcing a foreign carrier licensing they same rights and duties for everybody.
A word about the rogue carriers free allowed in Europe. It is not a question whether their management or staff are professional or not. The point is that they operate outside of any real aviation authority supervision and in the tough competition of our market they are forced to cut corners. Thus the lack of expensive spares and/or tired professionals diminishes safety.
The aim of a foreign air carrier licence in the EU would not be to ban such carriers but to help them to enforce better standards. The result would be an improved and safer market for all of us.
BeePee
------------------
Diesel 8 forever!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Beepee,
We should organize a farewell BBQ this week.Most of us have found/are on the edge of getting new jobs.So before loosing complete contact with each other, we should organize something here.
To all the rest of you guys of ex TLX, who votes a yes here?
We should organize a farewell BBQ this week.Most of us have found/are on the edge of getting new jobs.So before loosing complete contact with each other, we should organize something here.
To all the rest of you guys of ex TLX, who votes a yes here?
Guest
Posts: n/a
To all my friends at Cargo Lion,
I was so sad to get the news, You all know me as Kevin from Belfast.
I have to say that it was a pleasure to have met and worked with every one of you.
I have worked for many companies and Cargo Lion was by far the best ever.
They say that if you get on well with the people you work with it makes the job easier.
Well, The job was fantastic because of you guys!! Thank you each and every one of you, from Admin and Ops, Crewing and Maintenance and all the Pilots and Loadmasters.
The last 2 years for me have been a time that I will never forget.
I am sure we will all take away memories of the good times, Blue umbrellas in TFN, The pool at the Mencey and the comradeship of a true bunch of bloody good blokes.
I doubt I could make a 'Farewell Bash' in LUX, but I would like to wish every last one of you the best of luck in your coming endeavours, what ever they may be, may you all find true happiness.
Thank you everyone of you for making my life 'richer' in every way especially experience and friendship.
As way of a Goodbye to you all, those who know me will know that I was always reading books by Ernest Gann, when a friend of his died he wrote this about them....
You are standing on a shore..somewhere. And a ship before you spreads her white sails and sets out across the blue ocean. She is a beautiful ship, tall and strong in mast and spar.
You watch her until she hangs like a speck of white cloud, just where the sea and sky mingle with each other.
And someone at your side says ‘There , well she's gone'
But, gone where? She is just as strong as when she left your shore, just as strong and able.
Her diminished size is in you, not in her. And when someone says 'Well she's gone. There are other eyes watching her coming and ready to take up the glad shout, 'There she comes!
Good Luck to you all, May we will all meet up again very soon, I sincerely hope so!
Kevin
I was so sad to get the news, You all know me as Kevin from Belfast.
I have to say that it was a pleasure to have met and worked with every one of you.
I have worked for many companies and Cargo Lion was by far the best ever.
They say that if you get on well with the people you work with it makes the job easier.
Well, The job was fantastic because of you guys!! Thank you each and every one of you, from Admin and Ops, Crewing and Maintenance and all the Pilots and Loadmasters.
The last 2 years for me have been a time that I will never forget.
I am sure we will all take away memories of the good times, Blue umbrellas in TFN, The pool at the Mencey and the comradeship of a true bunch of bloody good blokes.
I doubt I could make a 'Farewell Bash' in LUX, but I would like to wish every last one of you the best of luck in your coming endeavours, what ever they may be, may you all find true happiness.
Thank you everyone of you for making my life 'richer' in every way especially experience and friendship.
As way of a Goodbye to you all, those who know me will know that I was always reading books by Ernest Gann, when a friend of his died he wrote this about them....
You are standing on a shore..somewhere. And a ship before you spreads her white sails and sets out across the blue ocean. She is a beautiful ship, tall and strong in mast and spar.
You watch her until she hangs like a speck of white cloud, just where the sea and sky mingle with each other.
And someone at your side says ‘There , well she's gone'
But, gone where? She is just as strong as when she left your shore, just as strong and able.
Her diminished size is in you, not in her. And when someone says 'Well she's gone. There are other eyes watching her coming and ready to take up the glad shout, 'There she comes!
Good Luck to you all, May we will all meet up again very soon, I sincerely hope so!
Kevin
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes, sad to hear about Cargolion. Specially sorry to hear of the people its going to put out of work.
What does annoy me is this. Quite a few of the disgruntled ex employees are having a go at the JAA. One or two of them admitted to others not having JAA licences i.e. operating JAA A/C on validations. If that is not a flexible attitude demonstrated by the JAA, I don't know what is a flexible attitude. Just remember, you guys who were operating on validations, you have been taking a seat off a person who has got off his backside and got the JAA licence. Try attempting that in North America and see how far you get. Personally I think the JAA are too damn soft.
[This message has been edited by Loc-out (edited 28 April 2001).]
What does annoy me is this. Quite a few of the disgruntled ex employees are having a go at the JAA. One or two of them admitted to others not having JAA licences i.e. operating JAA A/C on validations. If that is not a flexible attitude demonstrated by the JAA, I don't know what is a flexible attitude. Just remember, you guys who were operating on validations, you have been taking a seat off a person who has got off his backside and got the JAA licence. Try attempting that in North America and see how far you get. Personally I think the JAA are too damn soft.
[This message has been edited by Loc-out (edited 28 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
To the Loc-Dude,
I think you are right. Because when a immatured person like you, talking that kind of nonsense, was probably issued a JAA-license, then the JAA is really too damn-soft...
To the Lion guys: I am sad to hear this kind of bad news. I really can understand your situation, since I am flying for a small cargo-company, too... Probably with similar up and downs....
Good Luck ! I wish you the best, and let's be positive !
I think you are right. Because when a immatured person like you, talking that kind of nonsense, was probably issued a JAA-license, then the JAA is really too damn-soft...
To the Lion guys: I am sad to hear this kind of bad news. I really can understand your situation, since I am flying for a small cargo-company, too... Probably with similar up and downs....
Good Luck ! I wish you the best, and let's be positive !
Guest
Posts: n/a
To the Loc-Dude,
I think you are right. Because when an immatured person like you, talking that kind of nonsense is probably issued a JAA-license, then the JAA is really too damn soft !
To the Cargolion-Guys,
I feels sad to hear this kind of bad news. I can understand your situation, because I am flying for a small cargo-operator as well, probably going through similar up and downs.
Good luck and I wish you all the best. But let's be positive !
I think you are right. Because when an immatured person like you, talking that kind of nonsense is probably issued a JAA-license, then the JAA is really too damn soft !
To the Cargolion-Guys,
I feels sad to hear this kind of bad news. I can understand your situation, because I am flying for a small cargo-operator as well, probably going through similar up and downs.
Good luck and I wish you all the best. But let's be positive !
Guest
Posts: n/a
Burger Thing (Meathead)
Now calm down. Keep taking the tablets. Your condition is curable, with a lot of help and time.
I draw your attention to Page 1 of this thread, alapt writes: "Unfortunately, most of us are out of luck because we do not have EU licenses" I interpret this to mean, if a pilot is not in possession of a EU licence, then he is in possession of a non eu licence. Do you follow me so far? Good. If the aforementioned pilot has been employed by Cargolion (JAA compliant?), then he must have been issued with a validation, if he was not the holder of a EU licence.
And yes, the EU/JAA are too soft. Will the FAA, for eg. issue a validation on the strength of a JAA/EU licence? Don't think so.
Then there is the work permit/Greencard subject. No level playing field there either.
Now calm down. Keep taking the tablets. Your condition is curable, with a lot of help and time.
I draw your attention to Page 1 of this thread, alapt writes: "Unfortunately, most of us are out of luck because we do not have EU licenses" I interpret this to mean, if a pilot is not in possession of a EU licence, then he is in possession of a non eu licence. Do you follow me so far? Good. If the aforementioned pilot has been employed by Cargolion (JAA compliant?), then he must have been issued with a validation, if he was not the holder of a EU licence.
And yes, the EU/JAA are too soft. Will the FAA, for eg. issue a validation on the strength of a JAA/EU licence? Don't think so.
Then there is the work permit/Greencard subject. No level playing field there either.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh Loc...
Maybe I was a bit emotional when I read your statement, because I came back from a nightfliht, so I was a bit tired, but nevertheless I read all the other statements (also the one on page 1) so no need to advise me to read this again.
In my process of being under cure, I will try to widen your aviation-horizon a bit, if I can, in order to remove your Loc-out flag, to put you back on the centerline.
"...Just remember, you guys who were operating on validations, you have been taking a seat off a person who has got off his backside and got the JAA licence..."
-> This probably true, but think, why it is like that. It is not, because there is an evil company (Cargolion) which employes pilots with non-JAA licenses, just to make JAA-license holders angry and taking the jobs away...
They employ those pilots, because they want the most proficient and experienced pilots for their operation - DC-8/-10 type-rated, Cargo experienced (with all the problems and procedures involved, like dangerous goods, etc.) It makes for a rather small company a big difference, if they can hire pilots, and put them without a long (and so expensive)training into their operation.
I know what I am talking about, because I am flying in a very small company as well and every single penny counts and also where you have to be flexible, to meet the demands of the market.
Try to find (probably under time-pressure) a JAA-license holder, with DC-8 and DC-10 cargo experience, which is willing to to fly for a cargo-operator and also maybe willing to give up another position (new aircraft, Pax-flights, daytime shifts). I rather doubt, that you will find that many.
"...Try attempting that in North America and see how far you get..." What I know with my little experience, the FAA regulations concerning a convertion from JAA to FAA is more or less a reaction of the FAA from the attitude of European Aviation Authorities, regardng convertions from FAA to JAA. In the past it was not so difficult to make a conversion from a non-FAA to an FA ticket. Maybe you had to go through a little written test or making a checkride. But nevertheless it was much easier than the other way around, right ?
Granted, that it is almost impossible to get a working permission in the states, but also in Europe it is not that easy. I know a lot of pilots, who are high experienced, but they can't get a job in Europe, because they don't have a working permission, and a conversion is only possible with a lot of hassles - even if those guys having a license which is basically based on the UK system...
And as a personal advice to you: I would be a bit more sensible, putting statements like yours on the web, with having probably a very limited inside view of what was going on at cargolion, especially after what happended with the staff there
Maybe I was a bit emotional when I read your statement, because I came back from a nightfliht, so I was a bit tired, but nevertheless I read all the other statements (also the one on page 1) so no need to advise me to read this again.
In my process of being under cure, I will try to widen your aviation-horizon a bit, if I can, in order to remove your Loc-out flag, to put you back on the centerline.
"...Just remember, you guys who were operating on validations, you have been taking a seat off a person who has got off his backside and got the JAA licence..."
-> This probably true, but think, why it is like that. It is not, because there is an evil company (Cargolion) which employes pilots with non-JAA licenses, just to make JAA-license holders angry and taking the jobs away...
They employ those pilots, because they want the most proficient and experienced pilots for their operation - DC-8/-10 type-rated, Cargo experienced (with all the problems and procedures involved, like dangerous goods, etc.) It makes for a rather small company a big difference, if they can hire pilots, and put them without a long (and so expensive)training into their operation.
I know what I am talking about, because I am flying in a very small company as well and every single penny counts and also where you have to be flexible, to meet the demands of the market.
Try to find (probably under time-pressure) a JAA-license holder, with DC-8 and DC-10 cargo experience, which is willing to to fly for a cargo-operator and also maybe willing to give up another position (new aircraft, Pax-flights, daytime shifts). I rather doubt, that you will find that many.
"...Try attempting that in North America and see how far you get..." What I know with my little experience, the FAA regulations concerning a convertion from JAA to FAA is more or less a reaction of the FAA from the attitude of European Aviation Authorities, regardng convertions from FAA to JAA. In the past it was not so difficult to make a conversion from a non-FAA to an FA ticket. Maybe you had to go through a little written test or making a checkride. But nevertheless it was much easier than the other way around, right ?
Granted, that it is almost impossible to get a working permission in the states, but also in Europe it is not that easy. I know a lot of pilots, who are high experienced, but they can't get a job in Europe, because they don't have a working permission, and a conversion is only possible with a lot of hassles - even if those guys having a license which is basically based on the UK system...
And as a personal advice to you: I would be a bit more sensible, putting statements like yours on the web, with having probably a very limited inside view of what was going on at cargolion, especially after what happended with the staff there
Guest
Posts: n/a
It just shows the ignorance and stupidity of you, Loc.But hey, keep on replying pls, amuse us with your nonsense.
Burger Thing,
I'm sorry, but i feel you're wasting your time, talking sense into this idiot Loc.Thanks for your positive reply and attitude towards us.
Burger Thing,
I'm sorry, but i feel you're wasting your time, talking sense into this idiot Loc.Thanks for your positive reply and attitude towards us.
