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Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards

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Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards

Old 12th Mar 2009, 07:55
  #181 (permalink)  
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Today's news:

Offender IT failure 'avoidable'

Plans for a multi-million pound central database on offenders failed because of poor management and a lack of budget control, the spending watchdog says.

The National Audit Office said the abandoned IT project's rising costs and delays could have been avoided if basic management rules had been followed.

A real point to the UK ID Card scheme is that the government has planned a budget [sic] for the ID card scheme to cost 0.5 billion pounds a year for the next ten years.

yes folks, that's half a billion of *your* tax pounds every year on a scheme that under it's own terms is unworkable.

previous points made over the ID card scheme remain.

From a previous post of mine regarding the ID card scheme:

The European court of human rights found in favour of the plaintiff's in S. and Marper v. the United Kingdom a breach of human rights in their DNA being retained without conviction.

While it is implied that no-one will be forced to hold an ID card, it is implicit that to gain airside access in order to undertake one's employment will require the issuance of an ID card.

Ergo, while you are not forced to have an ID card, you have to make the choice of an ID card or your job.

While the EUCHR has found a breach of human rights in the holding of biometric data without criminal conviction, the implication here is that the UK government is doubly countermanding your human rights by way of you having to accept your human rights being violated to retain your job.

A point here i would like to consider is that there is a requirement for a criminal conviction certificate to be provided in order to be issued with an airside pass. There is no specific requirement noted as to when the certificate is issued. That is to say, if i am already in possession of a CRB check certificate then that should be sufficient for the issuance of an airside pass.

You can go to any police station, pay the 5 pounds, or whatever it is right now, and have a CRB check done and be issued with a certificate confirming no arrests/conviction. This would then be acceptable for the issuance of an airside pass WITHOUT the ID card.

*post in full is here*
Bruce Wayne is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2009, 14:40
  #182 (permalink)  
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Dual Nationality

What about those Pilots with dual nationality, say for example, British/Australian, British/Canadian or British/Irish?
If they hold dual nationality could they refuse on the grounds of the non - UK passport?
Or just resubmit their details with their other nationality thereby still being allowed a CRC certificate and Airside Pass issued?

Bad Robot is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2009, 14:07
  #183 (permalink)  
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And the Nausea continues:

All travel plans to be tracked by Government - Telegraph

Anyone departing the UK by land, sea or air will have their trip recorded and stored on a database for a decade.
In most cases the information will be expected to be provided 24 hours ahead of travel and will then be stored on a Government database for around ten years.
The owners of light aircraft will also be brought under the system, known as e-borders, which will eventually track 250 million journeys annually.
"Travellers will need to ensure that their passports are up to date and that details are input accurately if they don't want to end up in a dark room being grilled by border officials."
This is just another form of coercion to have an ID Card.
Wig Wag is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2009, 21:37
  #184 (permalink)  
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Bad Robot, that's one of the (many) flaws in the ID plan. Non UK citizens cannot be required to carry a UK ID, so a large minority of UK airline workers will never have one anyway. Dual passport holders will (and should) easily avoid the requirement.
My airline has a large proportion of Dutch and Belgians, none of whom will be required to have Gordon's ID. So why bother at all ?
Now, if that LTN baggage handler can just get his Afghan passport issued he'll never need a UK ID, and can carry on loading things onto UK aircraft ...
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Old 15th Mar 2009, 05:00
  #185 (permalink)  
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Aaaah, but jshg, can't you see the cunning plan to have a pan-european electronic ID database whereby some no-nark in Greece can see when you last went to the clap clinic and refuse you entry to the country as you may still have a dose?

Not sure if I should even suggest things like that in jest, they've probably decided on it already
hellsbrink is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2009, 13:48
  #186 (permalink)  
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The Greeks will also know who the plane spotters are. It makes it easier to arrest them.
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Old 16th Mar 2009, 16:56
  #187 (permalink)  

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European Cockpit Association press release from Friday:

European Cockpit Association (ECA) Website - Aviation Security: A Fortress with Open Doors

European Pilots in favour of ID cards.
The SSK is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2009, 20:50
  #188 (permalink)  
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You'll find that the problem isn't "ID cards" as a concept but the UK biometric National ID Card Scheme.

A European biometric ID card, for the sole purpose of entry into RZ's across the EU is the way forward.
tr0tsky is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2009, 09:33
  #189 (permalink)  
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The ECA's position makes some sense - but it's mainly talking about aircrew ID cards. Yes it would be an obvious improvement if there were a standardised, Europe-wide ID card.
Here in the UK it would make a vast army of security operatives instantly redundant. Large numbers of self-important jobsworths would thankfully become irrelevant.
Instead, our beloved government is pushing its half-baked national ID card scheme. (Contrary to the ECA's article, we would not be required to carry them with us.)
jshg is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2009, 10:03
  #190 (permalink)  
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BALPA Objects To Pilot ID Card Proposal


>>BALPA has written to the management of Manchester airport and London City airport - the first two locations selected by the Government to introduce the ID card to airside workers - and warned that pilots would not cooperate with the introduction of the ID card.<<

Excellent stuff. That sends out a very good signal.
Spartacan is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2009, 19:26
  #191 (permalink)  
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The Identity and Passport Service is now starting a survey of Manchester Airport staff in order to understand employees views on the proposed CWIC application form. Volunteers are being offered 75 of our governments money to take part in the survey. Not all volunteers will be called forward for interview. It would appear that successful volunteers will be aked to go through a trial application process and give their comments.

So thats it then, the application forms have already been printed subject to tweaking and a general thumbs up from a bunch of people who are only too happy to pocket a sum of cash ten times their normal hourly rate! Hope they declare it to HMRC.

All we have to wait for now is to be invited to "volunteer" for the real thing.
biddedout is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2009, 21:30
  #192 (permalink)  
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I tried to raise a post on the Manchester forum.....Seems it's only inhabited by spotters. No one on there gave a stuff....It can only be hoped that the intelligent at Manchester get organised.....
call100 is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2009, 19:17
  #193 (permalink)  
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Angry Hoops and hurdles

Just trying to get a renewed airside pass and no mention of an id card.
However, my referee was disallowed because he is retired - why? At my age most people who know me, contact me regularly and have known me for a while ARE retired as they have planned their lives better than me. Anyone else in this boat?
Disclosure accepted all my info - but the airport need me to go along with passport - disclosure - and NI card (or a P60, P45...) despite the fact I have had my pass for many years. If my current pass is good enough to get me airside for a few more months why isn't it good enough for the aiport authority to issue me another? Why should the airport or their employees know my income details? Do those checking my details have an airside pass? Have they been Disclosed? I am at a loss for any more words...
Hansoff is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2009, 20:36
  #194 (permalink)  
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Why should the airport or their employees know my income details?
You cannot be serious! I would have refused to supply this information - why should they need to know it.

Agree with all your other comments too.
fireflybob is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 14:23
  #195 (permalink)  
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The Identity and Passport Service is now starting a survey of Manchester Airport staff in order to understand employees views on the proposed CWIC application form. Volunteers are being offered 75 of our governments money to take part in the survey. Not all volunteers will be called forward for interview. It would appear that successful volunteers will be aked to go through a trial application process and give their comments.
If this is true then it is imperative that the staff at Manchester are made aware of the pitfalls of accepting this bribe. It is important for them not to be reassured by government spin and platitudes and realise that once they are on this database they will be on it for life. They should be made aware of a lifetime threat of civil penalties, loss of personal privacy and security risks. Is that worth 75.00?

Interestingly a report on the database state out today from the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust, says that more than half of Whitehall's 46 databases and systems have significant problems with privacy or effectiveness, and could fall foul of a legal challenge. It says Britain is now the most invasive surveillance state and the worst at protecting privacy of any western democracy.

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "In their desperation to track our every move, ministers have created a glut of databases, many of which are quite simply illegal."

Link: BBC NEWS | UK | Call to scrap 'illegal databases'
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Old 26th Mar 2009, 19:14
  #196 (permalink)  
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Interesting/humourous site about this......

Interesting/humourous site about this......

Ancient Observer is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2009, 16:10
  #197 (permalink)  
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Government Computer Systems Hacked:

Cyber Spies Hack Govt PCs Around The World - Yahoo! News UK
radar707 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2009, 20:17
  #198 (permalink)  
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This plan is a disaster from every angle. It is morally wrong and being done in a deceitful underhand fashion.Whats more we know the implementation will be a shambles wasting huge sums of our cash and they will leave our personal details on a bus.
ShotOne is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2009, 20:23
  #199 (permalink)  
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Can someone please explain what is 'demeaning' about needing a card to gain access to what should be a high security area?
manrow is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2009, 21:43
  #200 (permalink)  
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Yes, Manrow. We already have a 'card' to access a 'high security area' - the same one we've had for years, the good old airport ID card.
Our beloved government has decided it wants national ID cards, and has decreed that airport workers will have to have the national one. It's not compulsory, doesn't have to be carried to work, BUT we can't hold an airport ID without the 'voluntary' national ID, which is a dishonest nonsense because we therefore can't work.
The previous umpteen pages explain why this is irrelevant for security purposes.
It's 'demeaning' because it puts irrelevant details of our personal lives in the hands of semi-trained monkeys who will eventually leave these details on a train whilst dreaming about their index-linked pensions.
jshg is offline  

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